[sloomingbla]

Sloomingbla

I put you on my ignore list a while back and just expanded your post to find a "lol" directed at me.

^

The lol was coming from the fact that you bass boost your cans to oblivion, implying of course that although the djs have extremely good bass someone of your likes would not be impressed. Sheesh, the drama. Im pretty sure me and rpgwizard are implying that the djs bass has much more impact for the quantity. If you eqed the other cans down to the djs level, the djs would most likely destroy the vibes.

 

[cb3723]

+1 Ultrasones have the best bass impact of any headphone I've tried. They hit hard.

How do you account for the two bass test videos on prior page between the Sig DJ's and Vibe Black Death - both playing same track, levels etc?

Surely this is down to what ULTRASONE advise as S-Logic also reducing sound pressure upto 40%.

 

[cb3723]

Sloomingbla

I put you on my ignore list a while back and just expanded your post to find a "lol" directed at me.

^

The lol was coming from the fact that you bass boost your cans to oblivion, implying of course that although the djs have extremely good bass someone of your likes would not be impressed. Sheesh, the drama. Im pretty sure me and rpgwizard are implying that the djs bass has much more impact for the quantity. If you eqed the other cans down to the djs level, the djs would most likely destroy the vibes.

Both the Sig DJ's and the Vibes are tested under identical dap settings, amp etc - these are both my cans owned and tests made by me - I've no argument or emotional stake either way in any debate, but I was surprised when the Sig DJ cans differed so greatly, to which ULTRASONE's advice of their S-Logic tech also reducing sound pressure upto 40% as the cause makes sense.

Then a tangent meandered over the science of bass punch :blink:

I've gushed enough already on this thread over how much I love my Sig DJ's - they are truly an amazing sounding can, but for the bass/paper extreme EQ test they showed as an anomaly to the test - and the only sensible explanation for this is the cause of S-Logic - this is not a criticism, but an observation.

 

[sloomingbla]

Both the Sig DJ's and the Vibes are tested under identical dap settings, amp etc - these are both my cans owned and tests made by me - I've no argument or emotional stake either way in any debate, but I was surprised when the Sig DJ cans differed so greatly, to which ULTRASONE's advice of their S-Logic tech also reducing sound pressure upto 40% as the cause makes sense.

Then a tangent meandered over the science of bass punch :blink:

I've gushed enough already on this thread over how much I love my Sig DJ's - they are truly an amazing sounding can, but for the bass/paper extreme EQ test they showed as an anomaly to the test - and the only sensible explanation for this is the cause of S-Logic - this is not a criticism, but an observation.

They have the same bass boost applied, but the cans have a very different bass quantity to begin with. I would say adding the bass boost to only the djs would be a bit more fair, although i have heard that they dont respond well to eq. The best option for comparing the bass would be lowering the quantity of the vibes to match the djs.

For your and hbbs interests, yes the vibes do hit harder with more impact and bass quantity, we are most likely debating over different things. The paper test does indeed show that the vibes hit harder, we are just saying that the bass on the dj is much more responsive creating more impact for the amount of bass that it has. More impact over amount creates a very visceral, impactful and realistic bass.

 

[cb3723]

They have the same bass boost applied, but the cans have a very different bass quantity to begin with. I would say adding the bass boost to only the djs would be a bit more fair, although i have heard that they dont respond well to eq. The best option for comparing the bass would be lowering the quantity of the vibes to match the djs.

For your and hbbs interests, yes the vibes do hit harder with more impact and bass quantity, we are most likely debating over different things. The paper test does indeed show that the vibes hit harder, we are just saying that the bass on the dj is much more responsive creating more impact for the amount of bass that it has. More impact over amount creates a very visceral, impactful and realistic bass.

I think the Sig DJ are a true audiophile basshead headphone which bass is beautifully controlled, level of decay etc - and that's something (I think) me, you, HBB and many others all agree upon

 

[sloomingbla]

I think the Sig DJ are a true audiophile basshead headphone which bass is beautifully controlled, level of decay etc - and that's something (I think) me, you, HBB and many others all agree upon

Haha i agree. I think this got outta hand, sorry hbb or anyone else if i had insulted u in any way.

 

[plakat]

After getting the Signature Pro I'm contemplating the Sig DJ... walking through this thread it seems to be a nice fun-voiced headphone that does not loose itself in effects but provides good detail and overall sound quality -- might be a nice addition as I understand it as some kind of advanced M-100, which I like very much but has a too recessed midrange and too strong bass to use at home.
 
Regarding the above discussion of different takes on bass I may add my 2cent coming from many years working as a sound engineer. In short: for high-BPM genres like hardstyle we bring in the 15" horn-loaded bass systems, often applying a high pass filter that starts above 45Hz: deep bass does not come with 160BPM, the bass-kick is the thing (thats normally referred to as impact).
 
House-people like their bass deep, rather voluminous and enveloping, but it must still be clear and structured ->18" bass, maybe horn-loaded, and possibly some Infras for good measure. Low-Cut at 30Hz or below. Never ever use a band-pass, its an impulse mess.
 
Rap and R'n'B on the other hand *love* this things (i.e. band-pass) as bass hits on 1 (not 1-4 as in house) and is expected to vibrate for 2-4. Thats the only thing the paper-experiment above may provide some insight in.
 
There are of course many genres that fall somewhere in between and the most versatile setup is the one described in the house-section above -- which we therefore use most often. It corresponds to a headphone thats not genre-specific but has the capabilities needed by modern music (i.e. lots of energy down low). You can enjoy R'n'B on that system, but house on a R'n'B-specific system does not make a lot of sense.
 
So, to sum up: Bass is not the same as Bass, most genres of modern music have their own take on that. So I think you were not talking about the same thing above. The HD25 is to me a good example of kick-bass but no deep bass (which, in part, was a reason to sell it), the DT1350 is much more even, reaching down real low, while not emphasizing the kick part (which I would in frequency locate at around 80-150Hz).
 
I think I'll have to take a deeper look at the Sig DJ as it might provide a nice combination of kick and deep bass while retaining good resolution and imaging -- quite a feat actually. I dislike too much kick (i.e. upper bass)... lets see.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

^ Interesting comment from people working in this field. The comment about high pass filter on hardstyle speaker setups doesn't surprise me, it would probably sound like a muddy mess on such speaker setup without it not letting the distorted midfrequency part shining through enough. I had guessed it had been set at 40Hz though, there's some experimental deep kicks like a Noisecontroller kick that peaks around 45Hz but usually they peak at lowest 50Hz and highest up to about 70Hz (there's a few that goes even higher at the highest pitched kickdrum) for the hardstyle kicks. Also the kick part you mentioned, I'd call it "punch" personally but the term doesn't matter as long as we understand each other, I'd also say you are spot on when you mentioned the frequency range 80-150Hz, it's also the range I consider as midbass and both 80-150Hz and the subbass range 50 - 70Hz or so needs to be as much as possible in balance for it to sound right.

The Signature DJ should have a decent amount of both subbass and midbass, what I call the perfect bass curve for hardstyle music, they both need to be in balance as much as possible for the best result and according to the only measurement available on a russian site seems to confirm that:





This is the reason I'm personally so interested in Signature DJ due its perfect balance between midbass and subbass with suitable amount quantity too for my tastes. However I don't like seeing those peaks in the highs though, based on this measurement the mids do seem to be left slightly bit recessed as a result, the slight drop at 300Hz also would impact how the leads/synths would sound like probably leaving slightly bit thinner result than I'd ideally want.

 

[plakat]

Those FR graphs look tempting, might indeed be what I'm looking for.
The second graph leaves me a bit puzzled: if I interpret it correctly the Sig DJ acts like it has some kind of loudness (think old amps: low volume ->boost bass and highs, high volume ->linear) built in... But overall it might just be that 3dB less bass boost than the M-100 thats sometimes bothering me.
I might need to talk to my distributor If only the cups were black...
 
OT Regarding low cuts: I don't do 24db/octave, more like 6dB/octave. One thing is to keep the energy in the music (completely removing deep bass would only work with some old Jungle-tracks I guess , the other that of course every genre has its outliers. Its a way to enhance the kicking feeling by limiting max excursion of the drivers (6dB means 1/4 of the power, so thats quite a bit), thereby allowing more output in upper regions. Exact values depend on venue, expectations, volume limits etc. To keep with these intentions I'd normally not use mono bass but two stacks with a handover to tops around 150-180Hz (even higher with 4-way systems that have special midbass drivers). Mono bass clustered in the center helps with deep bass but needs to be cut off at 100Hz -- you see the problem...
 
Interesting to me to hear from someone mastering, i.e. not DJing. I'd expected you to use rather linear headphones for mastering and bass-bosted for checking the result. But of course if you know a correct mix sounds fun on your reference headphones you can target that as well I guess.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

BTW, if any1 is being bothered by slightly bit off-topic talk in the signature DJ thread you should mention it, it's not like there's much more to be said in this lenghty thread though...

Yea I didn't expect you do some 24dB cuts or so either, but like you said it will instead help to emphasize the other part of the bass frequency instead. The same way I may slightly lower some deep bass to give more room for mid/upper bass.

Quote:

 
Interesting to me to hear from someone mastering, i.e. not DJing. I'd expected you to use rather linear headphones for mastering and bass-bosted for checking the result. But of course if you know a correct mix sounds fun on your reference headphones you can target that as well I guess.

 
That's because I work by the principle, "golden middlepath". I've heard thousands of retail pro mastered tracks and know how they sound like on MY equipment (those also tend to sound quite perfect to me on my equipment so when it sounds good to me it usually is also tweaked accurately) so I simply try to aim for that golden middlepath between retail tracks in terms of how much brightness there is in the track, how much of a bass there is to the kickdrum, suitable reverb and stereo imaging etc.

The bass boost also allows me to feel the bass giving a "tickling" sensation of some sort which won't happen with neutral bass response (well not at sane long-term listening levels at least). So it's like an additional tool that tells me, yea, now the bass levels are on a suitable level when I start to feel it, pro tracks usually always give me that feeling and a lot of times newcomer tracks need a bit of a boost at the lows to get there, well that coupled with a boosted master vol level and mixdown suitably configured of course.

Due to going by the "golden middlepath" rule which should work best for the biggest amount listeners, I also can't instantly master accurately whenever my equipment changes as I first have to adapt to how other retail tracks sound like to be able to tell how the tracks I master should sound like. Having sticked to my M-Audio Q40 for over 2 years I'm so familiar with the sound that I got a good sense of judgement when listening with it.

Following that principle I don't necessarily need a perfect balance between mids and highs either as I can adapt how it should sound like on that equipment but that's mostly for my personal taste since I'm very picky about how thin/thick or smooth/crispy the leads/vocals etc. should sound like.

 

 

[cb3723]

After getting the Signature Pro I'm contemplating the Sig DJ... walking through this thread it seems to be a nice fun-voiced headphone that does not loose itself in effects but provides good detail and overall sound quality -- might be a nice addition as I understand it as some kind of advanced M-100, which I like very much but has a too recessed midrange and too strong bass to use at home.

Regarding the above discussion of different takes on bass I may add my 2cent coming from many years working as a sound engineer. In short: for high-BPM genres like hardstyle we bring in the 15" horn-loaded bass systems, often applying a high pass filter that starts above 45Hz: deep bass does not come with 160BPM, the bass-kick is the thing (thats normally referred to as impact).

House-people like their bass deep, rather voluminous and enveloping, but it must still be clear and structured ->18" bass, maybe horn-loaded, and possibly some Infras for good measure. Low-Cut at 30Hz or below. Never ever use a band-pass, its an impulse mess.

Rap and R'n'B on the other hand *love* this things (i.e. band-pass) as bass hits on 1 (not 1-4 as in house) and is expected to vibrate for 2-4. Thats the only thing the paper-experiment above may provide some insight in.

There are of course many genres that fall somewhere in between and the most versatile setup is the one described in the house-section above -- which we therefore use most often. It corresponds to a headphone thats not genre-specific but has the capabilities needed by modern music (i.e. lots of energy down low). You can enjoy R'n'B on that system, but house on a R'n'B-specific system does not make a lot of sense.

So, to sum up: Bass is not the same as Bass, most genres of modern music have their own take on that. So I think you were not talking about the same thing above. The HD25 is to me a good example of kick-bass but no deep bass (which, in part, was a reason to sell it), the DT1350 is much more even, reaching down real low, while not emphasizing the kick part (which I would in frequency locate at around 80-150Hz).

I think I'll have to take a deeper look at the Sig DJ as it might provide a nice combination of kick and deep bass while retaining good resolution and imaging -- quite a feat actually. I dislike too much kick (i.e. upper bass)... lets see.

Hi there,

I have the Signature Pro's also and owned them before I then picked up the DJ's and prefer the DJ's quite considerably between the two - the extra at the bottom end with 10mm bigger drivers to the Pro's really make for a fun but beautifully detailed bass that doesn't bleed into the mids or highs. I also find the soundstage more expansive than the Pro's - I was really bowled over first hearing the DJ's and out of my headphone collection, the Sig DJ's are in my top five favourites. I dare suggest that if you already own the Pro's and like their sound albeit on the neutral side - you'll love the Sig DJ's - think of the Pro's as Angelic neutrality sitting on one side and the DJs as the devilish but fun rogue sitting on the other side

Check the bass/paper test video to see how the Sig DJ's perform using Hip-Hop track "On my level" by Wiz Khalifa, the settings used are detailed below video - I don't know if that specific genre of music is something you like or not but I find these tests a lot of fun and a unique visual of bass SPL transfer and a good guide to different headphones capabilities to this type of bass from type of music genre. Think car audio contests for headphones and you get the idea, not to mention the extreme bass club thread curator comes from a background in car audio competition

Spoiler

 

[plakat]

   
That's because I work by the principle, "golden middlepath". I've heard thousands of retail pro mastered tracks and know how they sound like on MY equipment (those also tend to sound quite perfect to me on my equipment so when it sounds good to me it usually is also tweaked accurately) so I simply try to aim for that golden middlepath between retail tracks in terms of how much brightness there is in the track, how much of a bass there is to the kickdrum, suitable reverb and stereo imaging etc.

The bass boost also allows me to feel the bass giving a "tickling" sensation of some sort which won't happen with neutral bass response (well not at sane long-term listening levels at least). So it's like an additional tool that tells me, yea, now the bass levels are on a suitable level when I start to feel it, pro tracks usually always give me that feeling and a lot of times newcomer tracks need a bit of a boost at the lows to get there, well that coupled with a boosted master vol level and mixdown suitably configured of course.

Due to going by the "golden middlepath" rule which should work best for the biggest amount listeners, I also can't instantly master accurately whenever my equipment changes as I first have to adapt to how other retail tracks sound like to be able to tell how the tracks I master should sound like. Having sticked to my M-Audio Q40 for over 2 years I'm so familiar with the sound that I got a good sense of judgement when listening with it.

Following that principle I don't necessarily need a perfect balance between mids and highs either as I can adapt how it should sound like on that equipment but that's mostly for my personal taste since I'm very picky about how thin/thick or smooth/crispy the leads/vocals etc. should sound like.

 

 
I think I understand your way of work. It spares you the reference headphones by calibrating to a headphone that sounds good with correctly mastered (i.e. known good) tracks. To get that feeling of fun you prefer a bit of a bass boost as discussed above (i.e. not of the 'lots of, but soft' kind, but more structured and hard hitting without being overdone) and therefore know when your tweaks are complete: it sounds like fun. Thats a viable position... actually there's no need for an absolute reference (i.e. something like the studio classics AKG etc.).
Of course you need to re-adjust after getting a new headphone... I'd prefer mids not too recessed (and highs sparkling but definitely not sibilant, i.e. preferably no peak ~3-5kHz, which the Sig DJ does seem to have according to the graphs) as I'd have the feeling of loosing details in the mids/highs otherwise. Don't know if adapting works there as well as it does in the lower registers (though its limited there as well, even adapting won't regain lost details).
 

Hi there,

I have the Signature Pro's also and owned them before I then picked up the DJ's and prefer the DJ's quite considerably between the two - the extra at the bottom end with 10mm bigger drivers to the Pro's really make for a fun but beautifully detailed bass that doesn't bleed into the mids or highs. I also find the soundstage more expansive than the Pro's - I was really bowled over first hearing the DJ's and out of my headphone collection, the Sig DJ's are in my top five favourites. I dare suggest that if you already own the Pro's and like their sound albeit on the neutral side - you'll love the Sig DJ's - think of the Pro's as Angelic neutrality sitting on one side and the DJs as the devilish but fun rogue sitting on the other side

Check the bass/paper test video to see how the Sig DJ's perform using Hip-Hop track "On my level" by Wiz Khalifa, the settings used are detailed below video - I don't know if that specific genre of music is something you like or not but I find these tests a lot of fun and a unique visual of bass SPL transfer and a good guide to different headphones capabilities to this type of bass from type of music genre. Think car audio contests for headphones and you get the idea, not to mention the extreme bass club thread curator comes from a background in car audio competition

 
Well, I just ordered the devil to sit on my other shoulder
Yes, the car audio competitions are a good comparison for that paper thing... I've seen that when some intelligent PR bloke once covered my nice array of 18" horns with a banner. After a short demo we came to the friendly agreement to not do that.

 

[Bloodflowerz]

Just got confirmation from Ultrasone that the Signature DJ is NOT using the same drivers as the entry level DJ 1 /DJ Pro.
 
"On our spares list, they are detailed separately, look different and the Sig drivers cost 3 times the price.  So they must be very different animals....."

 

[cb3723]

Well, I just ordered the devil to sit on my other shoulder
Yes, the car audio competitions are a good comparison for that paper thing... I've seen that when some intelligent PR bloke once covered my nice array of 18" horns with a banner. After a short demo we came to the friendly agreement to not do that.

Congrats on your purchase - I hope you get the opportunity/time to post your first impressions upon your receipt - another great aspect of the Sig DJs I've yet to convey to you is their ability to sound virtually just as good plugged into source DAP without any amplification as they do with an amp.

Good times

 

[plakat]

Congrats on your purchase - I hope you get the opportunity/time to post your first impressions upon your receipt - another great aspect of the Sig DJs I've yet to convey to you is their ability to sound virtually just as good plugged into source DAP without any amplification as they do with an amp.

Good times

 
Thanks -- and feel guilty for me spending money: your comparison with angel/devil was just too cute to resist
 
I do often use my closed portable headphones without an amp as its too much hassle to carry around... so I'd be glad to have a good closed headphone that does not need an amp.