[rwest1389]

I think its important to note that the military said they hadn't done anything in the air since December 18th, so that explanation doesn't seem to fit.

I also think its important to point out that these were UFOs because no one has been able to identify what they were, hence unidentified flying object.

I have always thought that life is sure to exist somewhere else, but it is a great leap to assume it is anything like human life. I really doubt any life will contact us, and I don't think man kind will survive long enough to develop the technology to travel millions of light years, which is probably what is necessary to find anything.

That said, I've been wrong about many things, so I always try to keep an open mind.

 

[Marados]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeAmEye /img/forum/go_quote.gif I never suggested Occam's Razor was proven, quite the opposite actually. I was pointing out how people use Occam's Razor as a way of dismissing complex theories when the Occam's itself could very well have no merit whatsoever. Simply because you may be able to apply it in certain situations and it appears to fit doesn't make it valid.

Sorry about that, I meant to say you suggesting Occam's Razor had to be proven.

My bad.

 

[Dzjudz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeAmEye /img/forum/go_quote.gif If even 1% of what's out there is true, I want to know.

When is something true? When people believe it is true? I'm not sure how any of the UFO theories can be considered 'true' in a scientific sense.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, there's really not much more to it than what Marados is putting forward, is there? There is no proof for any of those theories, so the only thing these theories have got going for them is the faith (yes, I will say it again, faith) people put into them as being true. And, as we all know, despite some theories (I will not go much further into this, a slippery slope towards banned discussions on these forums) lacking substantive evidence, many people are still reluctant to dismiss them on the basis of such clear principles as Occam's Razor. There's no arguing with believers. I'm a healthy sceptic, if I say so myself. I don't dismiss theories on face value, but I'd like some real facts/proof before I stand behind them. Next!

There's no way to ever find valid evidence, should there be any, if people aren't willing to search for it. You don't have to be a believer, I wouldn't call myself one either, but there so much more to life than science can explain, and looking into what appears to be even the most outlandish claim is never harmful. If all those history courses that are crammed down our throats in school are good for anything, they show us how what was once seen as outlandish now seems obvious and rational. How will we be viewed by those looking back at us, arrogantly thinking our sciences have solid answers?

 

[Dzjudz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeAmEye /img/forum/go_quote.gif There's no way to ever find valid evidence, should there be any, if people aren't willing to search for it. You don't have to be a believer, I wouldn't call myself one either, but there so much more to life than science can explain, and looking into what appears to be even the most outlandish claim is never harmful. If all those history courses that are crammed down our throats in school are good for anything, they show us how what was once seen as outlandish now seems obvious and rational. How will we be viewed by those looking back at us, arrogantly thinking our sciences have solid answers?

See, this is the response I like to see. I agree with most of what you say here. Indeed, searching for valid evidence is a virtue in my eyes. Even trying to proof the wildest theories is possible, as long as you have found the valid evidence for it. The problem I have with these UFO theories, however, is that they are being seen as true by some people without the valid evidence being put forward! Indeed, history has shown that the unknown cannot always be explained with the science of the time. However, that doesn't mean that you can just assume any theory to be true on the argument that maybe science just doesn't have the capacity to proof this theory to be true. Don't you see the problem with that? I fully agree that science today cannot offer answers to every question. That doesn't mean that every answer to the questions science cannot yet answer is automatically true!

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz /img/forum/go_quote.gif When is something true? When people believe it is true? I'm not sure how any of the UFO theories can be considered 'true' in a scientific sense.

Truth is absolute, science doesn't make it true. If what's in the video is a "flying saucer", it matters not if it can be proven to be so. Same if it isn't. The most likely explanation is some military test they aren't willing to share with us, but that can't be proven either. Still wouldn't make it true or untrue.

 

[Marados]

Perhaps I'll edit all of this out. =p

Yeah, I agree looking for evidence is good (although one could say it's a waste of time if you go too far into it), but always remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Dzjudz]

Marados, that response is not called for in any way. I agree with EyeAmEye, looking into what appears to be even the most outlandish claim is never harmful. The boundary, in my eyes, however, is that you shouldn't act on those outlandish claims without the proper valid evidence.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz /img/forum/go_quote.gif See, this is the response I like to see. I agree with most of what you say here. Indeed, searching for valid evidence is a virtue in my eyes. Even trying to proof the wildest theories is possible, as long as you have found the valid evidence for it. The problem I have with these UFO theories, however, is that they are being seen as true by some people without the valid evidence being put forward! Indeed, history has shown that the unknown cannot always be explained with the science of the time. However, that doesn't mean that you can just assume any theory to be true on the argument that maybe science just doesn't have the capacity to proof this theory to be true. Don't you see the problem with that? I fully agree that science today cannot offer answers to every question.

I think you are asking this question of me with the assumption I believe certain theories, when I can confirm I do not. I am an avid reader/viewer of all the conspiracy theories, the paranormal, and anything else generally considered outlandish, but I am not convinced. The only belief I hold is that there is reason to believe there MAY be something to the claims.

At this very moment I am watching Monster Quest regarding the "Skunk Ape". I am willing to believe in the possibility of its existence, but haven't seen nor read anything to convince me it does.

 

[Marados]

You're right. I edited it before anyone replied to it, but wasn't quick enough to catch the people that'd seen it unfortunately. =p

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Marados, that response is not called for in any way. I agree with EyeAmEye, looking into what appears to be even the most outlandish claim is never harmful. The boundary, in my eyes, however, is that you shouldn't act on those outlandish claims without the proper valid evidence.

Whatever it was, I'm sure it bolstered my original claim of childish behavior in this thread...

 

[Dzjudz]

Okay, that's this discussion wrapped up methinks

.

 

[Marados]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeAmEye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Whatever it was, I'm sure it bolstered my original claim of childish behavior in this thread...

Ad hominem, buddy. I posted some examples throughout history of where believing in outlandish claims had resulted in direct harm to others, but I figured it wasn't on topic enough to justify it, and hence edited it out.

It wasn't childish - it simply wasn't quite valid in the line of reasoning.

 

[slowpogo]

OK...none of you know me in person, so take this how you will. I have a very good friend who I've known about 6 years; we live in different states now but have kept in touch. We went to the same college, also went on a hiking trip and generally hung out a lot and know each other well.

As a person, I admire my friend (who I'll call Dan). He's very intelligent, always reliable, accountable, in general he's a truly great guy. He's someone who just seems to attract interesting things into his life, whether they are jobs, friends, opportunities that fall into his lap, whatever. It's fun to be around him, because at any mundane moment something interesting might happen in his vicinity. A lot of people seem to know one or two people like this, I've found out.

Anyway, the last time I saw him we had the TV on, and a special on UFO's came on the History Channel. I was just watching commenting here and there the little bits I'd heard about Roswell and so on, just idle chatter. Dan was unusually reserved during this, and seemed to be deeply considering something. He finally grabbed the remote and turned the TV down.

He told me he that the year before, he and his brother were camping in the Boundary Waters area, at the border of Minnesota and Canada. They were near the edge of a large lake. At dusk, as they were starting a fire his brother grabbed him and told him to look at something...apparently there was a large dark triangular shape hanging in the sky, they estimated half a mile away, a few hundred feet in the air. He thought it was moving very slowly laterally but they weren't sure. They watched it for about 40 minutes, until the sky was too dark to see if it was there.

Anyway, I believe him 100% that he saw a black triangle in the sky in the wilderness. He said they called some UFO hotline when the trip was over to report it, and he'd talked with one or other two people about it, but seemed kind of embarrassed, resigned to the fact that nobody could really take him seriously, no matter how real it seemed.

Personally, apart from some experimental military aircraft flying over the deep woods of Minnesota, I don't know what else they could have seen. I've never known him to lie, and for him to suddenly decide to fabricate such a thing is out of the question. He certainly believes in what he saw, himself.

Anyone here have any Occam's Razor theories to explain this sighting?

 

[oicdn]

I don't nelive in UFO's, but that doesn't mean I don't think there's other life beings or forms out there.

I mean, if you say "well, why do they ever just sit in the sky and do nothing?" Same can be said for us when we observe things in the wild, or even in laboratories. Hell, we could be the bacteria in a jar getting observed....in anycase, I find it VERY hard to believe we're it. Just by the law of numbers, if each star has a solar system, just by the stars we can SEE, there has to be life on atleast ONE if not some of those...that's quite alot of "nothing" for us to be alone...