[Destroysall]

Kent,
Quote:

  While we're on the subject of cartridges, I'm looking to upgrade the cart on my Rega RP3. Is there a reason to pick up an MC over an MM or vice versa? I'm picking up a Pro-Ject Tube Box S, so amplification isn't an issue. What would you recommend in the $500 range?

The Dynavector 10x5 is a wonderful cartridge that would work beautifully with the RP3 and one that will fit your budget..
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[arcorob]

  The Dynavector 10x5 is a wonderful cartridge that would work beautifully with the RP3 and one that will fit your budget..
-

Yes, that is a good choice for the RP3

 

[Dillan]

  This is one of my favorite threads on Head-Fi, mixed with serious TT experts and newbies, and those of us who rediscovered the beauty of vinyl.
 
I grew up with vinyl and TT's so catching up on the latest gear and setups with the help of the pro's on this thread has been so helpful.  
 
My take, a decent lower priced TT can be as satisfying as an expensive CD player.  CD's have a sterile digital quality in comparison to vinyl.
 
For newbies who want an intro to TT's with the less expensive setups,

please go for it.

 
Yea it's a good mix that's for sure!  Also can be pretty helpful, it sure helped me with my analog investments.
 
-
 
Also to reply to the previous comments, especially about the serious audio perfectionists..  I definitely am one.  Although new to analogue.. I have been a proud digital audio enthusiast for years!
 
I appreciate any advice, but I just don't like people to go overboard with simple discussions you know (or try to talk down to you).  I would rather hear facts a lot more in comparison to someones opinion, even if that opinion is influenced by years of experience.. I am just a factual, statistics kind of guy.  I prefer the science of it all. 
 
This thread is for sure a good read and AnalogueSurvivor, you don't have to hold back.  I don't have a budget nor do I accept less than perfection! 
 
Just try to have a conversation and keep it a little more simple and light, I just wanted to ask a few basic questions as I am just kind of dipping my foot in turntables.
 
Also AudioKarma is a great site, thanks to arcorob for sending me there!
 

 

[arcorob]

   
 
 
Also AudioKarma is a great site, thanks to arcorob for sending me there!
 

I've been there for a few years...man those guys taught me a lot plus, I have actually met some in person for personal help with tube amps, etc.
 
audioshark is also another good one I belong to (as ohbythebay) and VERY VERY friendly..no snobs...but geeze, they are also very high end so these guys amaze me what they will spend....$500 on a set of cables. $20k on a turntable...like its common..sheesh
 
And of course head-fi which is awesome...
 
I think these are the 3 best audio sites on the net...

 

[Dillan]

  I've been there for a few years...man those guys taught me a lot plus, I have actually met some in person for personal help with tube amps, etc.
 
audioshark is also another good one I belong to (as ohbythebay) and VERY VERY friendly..no snobs...but geeze, they are also very high end so these guys amaze me what they will spend....$500 on a set of cables. $20k on a turntable...like its common..sheesh
 
And of course head-fi which is awesome...
 
I think these are the 3 best audio sites on the net...

 
Yea man I love head-fi.  I'll check out audioshark too.

 

[RUMAY408]

I saw a nice TT setup this AM on CBS Morning News, of all the strange places, a $50,000 Bergman Audio TT.
 
The range of prices on TT's scale to $300,000
 
Can anyone give some type of setup cost vs. accuracy
 
ex. $1,000 = 80% efficiency
 
I'm still not sure whether a $6,000 TT is 3X better than a $2,000 setup
 
HP's seem so much more straight forward to scale 

 

[arcorob]

wow...how does one scale that...how about this
 
$300,000 turntable on a $1000 system will sound pretty much the same as a $500 table...maybe 1% better
 
$300,000 turntable on a $500,000 system might sound much better than the less expensive system..but quantifying how much better...well, is it the table, the system...
 
The turntable is just a link in the chain
 
Table, cart, phono stage, cables, amp, speakers

 

[RUMAY408]

  wow...how does one scale that...how about this
 
$300,000 turntable on a $1000 system will sound pretty much the same as a $500 table...maybe 1% better
 
$300,000 turntable on a $500,000 system might sound much better than the less expensive system..but quantifying how much better...well, is it the table, the system...
 
The turntable is just a link in the chain
 
Table, cart, phono stage, cables, amp, speakers

Good point, I should be more specific, if all the equipment was high end and all things equal 2K vs 6K what would the difference be.

 

[Dillan]

  Good point, I should be more specific, if all the equipment was high end and all things equal 2K vs 6K what would the difference be.

 
I think it is too broad of a question and can have too many factors.  I would think spending a lot more money in general would produce better sound.. but..
 
You can't put it to some sort of scale though and it could even potentially be worse obviously..
 
Diminishing returns is a huge factor in audio, but I do think high end systems are obviously and audibly better than low end.
 
But to measure something like that is impossible.

 

 

[Destroysall]

  wow...how does one scale that...how about this
 
$300,000 turntable on a $1000 system will sound pretty much the same as a $500 table...maybe 1% better
 
$300,000 turntable on a $500,000 system might sound much better than the less expensive system..but quantifying how much better...well, is it the table, the system...
 
The turntable is just a link in the chain
 
Table, cart, phono stage, cables, amp, speakers

I think when the number start to climb upwards past $50k on a turntable alone, the sonic differences become indistinguishable. Even $50k sounds a little too much in my opinion.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
Although I must say, AS has made me seriously think about picking up a Technica SL-10... 

SL10 is to be AVOIDED. It was the first model in the line, it is infested with teething troubles - which were being gradually rectified in subsequent incarnations. It CAN be put right - but it is very $$$ to do so. Its only real advantage is metal construction for portable use.On purely pragmatical level, it is the way to acquire the EPC P310MC
cartridge - which runs rings around most competition, right up to this very day. Sold separately, it usually has starting bid higher than it is possible to get SL 10 with an EPC P310 in at least retipping ready condition. It DOES pay off to retip this baby with the very best tip you can possibly persuade rettiper of choice to put it on.
 
I own > 20 Technics linear tables, > 10 types. SL 10's biggest and most annoying failing is the way it has servo for tonearm movement - it is a "kicking mule", every time sensor identifies there is > 0.25 degree of angle error, it introduces a pulse or thump, WHICH IS AUDIBLE. Specially in  large systems and/or good headphones. In large system, think of sound of a distant earthquake - EVERY 2 revolutions (or so) of the record....Eventually Technics got that right - but SL 7 alone has two official revisions with at least two more "we reserve the right to modify the design in order to improve performance without notice" in between...
 
At long last , after all the troubles with computer(s), RAID array etc etc, my scanner is finally operational. I will post measurements of Technics SL family of tables from their prime, as tested by HI FI Choice. Those pulses are clearly visible in the graphs. One day, in hopefully not too distant future, I will learn how to generate graphs from the measurements I record now for about a year to the first digital capable of usable resolution, the DSD128. The biggest obstacle I see is the fact that no way I am going to satisfy myself with the limiting the graphs to 20000 Hz - going correctly to at least 50 kHz may well prove $$$.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
I think it is too broad of a question and can have too many factors.  I would think spending a lot more money in general would produce better sound.. but..
 
You can't put it to some sort of scale though and it could even potentially be worse obviously..
 
Diminishing returns is a huge factor in audio, but I do think high end systems are obviously and audibly better than low end.
 
But to measure something like that is impossible.

 

It is not the question of 2 "clams" vs 6 "clams" ( clam is my fictional currency in audio) - it is how well thes "clams" are being spent in order to get performance as high as possible. Lessons learned in R & D, producing 800 "clam" result, can be applied in say 15 "clam" product which offers 98 % performance of the 800 "clam" R & D behemoth loaded with all bells and whistles imaginable.
 
I *might* have exaggerated this a bit - but I did it on purpose.
 
Specially with turntables, the laws of diminishing returns start to set early indeed. I see little point in making TTs with ORDERS of magnitude better specs than any machine ever built to cut the record master, let alone the actual pressed vinyl record - while ignoring the fact that these real world records require much more than just 
speed and rumble to be low enough ...

 

[Shaffer]

wow...how does one scale that...how about this

$300,000 turntable on a $1000 system will sound pretty much the same as a $500 table...maybe 1% better

Couldn't disagree more, assuming it's a real stereo assembled with care. All things being equal, the better 'table (along with the LP) will be significantly quieter, will extract much more detail from the recording. Its frequency response, extension, the scope of is presentation all exist on a higher level of magnitude. I've actually done this. OTOH, if the $1000 system is a computer saddled with the typical head-fi kid gear spinning a beat, dirty record bought for $0.99 at a thrift shop just so he can post a vinyl vs digital comparison with no real experience or point of reference, well.....

Edit: Is this like 40 years ago? I mean, Linn tought us all something, then, and it's a big mistake to forget the lesson.

I think these are the 3 best audio sites on the net...

There's another forum, albeit not as populous, but its rules state that I'm not allowed to post what it is. It likely has the most advanced turntable board anywhere on the 'net. No exaggeration.

 

[arcorob]

Couldn't disagree more, assuming it's a real stereo assembled with care. All things being equal, the better 'table (along with the LP) will be significantly quieter, will extract much more detail from the recording. Its frequency response, extension, the scope of is presentation all exist on a higher level of magnitude. I've actually done this. OTOH, if the $1000 system is a computer saddled with the typical head-fi kid gear spinning a beat, dirty record bought for $0.99 at a thrift shop just so he can post a vinyl vs digital comparison with no real experience or point of reference, well.....

Edit: Is this like 40 years ago? I mean, Linn tought us all something, then, and it's a big mistake to forget the lesson.
There's another forum, albeit not as populous, but its rules state that I'm not allowed to post what it is. It likely has the most advanced turntable board anywhere on the 'net. No exaggeration.

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Many of the people I speak with HAVE these systems. They will all tell you the same thing. The jump up the food chain nets a smaller and smaller improvement percentage. So to go from a $2000 system to a $5000 system might net you 10%. $5000 to $15000 6%..$15000 to $25000...5%...after that it gets much smaller. I have guys spending extra $1000's on cables, parts, etc. to net 1/2% or less..because they can.
 
As to the "other" forum, not the one whose name and reputation pretty much equates to snobbery is it ? Wouldn't touch it for a free $300000 table.

 

[Shaffer]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. Many of the people I speak with HAVE these systems. They will all tell you the same thing. The jump up the food chain nets a smaller and smaller improvement percentage. So to go from a $2000 system to a $5000 system might net you 10%. $5000 to $15000 6%..$15000 to $25000...5%...after that it gets much smaller. I have guys spending extra $1000's on cables, parts, etc. to net 1/2% or less..because they can.

I prefer to listen for myself. We're discussing turntables. YMMV

As to the "other" forum, not the one whose name and reputation pretty much equates to snobbery is it ? Wouldn't touch it for a free $300000 table. :eek:

I don't care for the name, either, truth be told, but that's where the folks who fuel this industry gather. What you seem to equate with snobbery is actually real expertise gathered through work experience (as in design), advanced education, decades of listening and putting one's money where his mouth is (I mean in terms commerce, and participation in the audio business - making a product). It's not right for everyone, nor is everyone equally welcome. Sorry.

Out of sheer curiosity, how many $300,000 turntables can you name that you've been in the same room with? Better, how many $300,000 turntables can you name, period?

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