TURNTABLE SETUP Questions thread - don't start a new thread, ASK YOUR QUESTION HERE!
Jan 27, 2014 at 11:56 AM Post #2,176 of 3,585
I went without any working turntable from about 1992-1999.  When i decided I needed to start playing my records again, I bought a Pro-Ject TT and whatever cartridge it came with - about $350.  It was OK, better than nothing, but didn't really excite me, honestly.  I then upgraded it to a rig I paid $1,500 for - Denon DP-59L, Benz ACE, and Monolithic Audio phono pre.  I would say that this upgrade was HUGE - maybe 200% better.  No kidding.
 
Then about 10 years later, I upgraded to a VPI Scoutmaster, Benz LP-S, and EAR 834P phono pre.  I paid @$7K for this.  And I would say it was about 15-20% better than the Denon/ACE rig.
 
I bet to get 10% more than what I have now, I would have to spend $20-25K.  And I ain't doing that.
 
Diminishing returns exist big time in all of audio.  But the value of money is quite different for everyone, of course.
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 12:08 PM Post #2,177 of 3,585
I went without any working turntable from about 1992-1999.  When i decided I needed to start playing my records again, I bought a Pro-Ject TT and whatever cartridge it came with - about $350.  It was OK, better than nothing, but didn't really excite me, honestly.  I then upgraded it to a rig I paid $1,500 for - Denon DP-59L, Benz ACE, and Monolithic Audio phono pre.  I would say that this upgrade was HUGE - maybe 200% better.  No kidding.

Then about 10 years later, I upgraded to a VPI Scoutmaster, Benz LP-S, and EAR 834P phono pre.  I paid @$7K for this.  And I would say it was about 15-20% better than the Denon/ACE rig.

I bet to get 10% more than what I have now, I would have to spend $20-25K.  And I ain't doing that.

Diminishing returns exist big time in all of audio.  But the value of money is quite different for everyone, of course.


Agree 100%. I'd just like to add that money isn't the only differentiating factor in acceptance, but also an expectation of value. That word, value, hinges on one's individual priority structure, as you implied.

FWIW, my current phono rig is worth maybe $5K. I've had more elaborate setups, and I run this, because it suits my needs. Those needs are driven by three factors: sound quality, ergonomics, and the simple fact that over time I (personally) turned into a leveler regrading my own expectations:

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/index.html
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 5:50 PM Post #2,178 of 3,585
  I saw a nice TT setup this AM on CBS Morning News, of all the strange places, a $50,000 Bergman Audio TT.
 
The range of prices on TT's scale to $300,000
 
Can anyone give some type of setup cost vs. accuracy
 
ex. $1,000 = 80% efficiency
 
I'm still not sure whether a $6,000 TT is 3X better than a $2,000 setup
 
HP's seem so much more straight forward to scale 

 
That is pure materialism, music has nothing to do with it at that point.
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 7:23 PM Post #2,180 of 3,585
   
That is pure materialism, music has nothing to do with it at that point.


I have to agree...honestly, once you get over 5k to 6k (Such as a VPI Classic III), you are showing your cash. The percentage of increase in sound from a 5k table to a 15k table MIGHT be 1%..after that ...nada...Its like having a solid gold razor or jewel encased cel phone. Did they work better ? No...just bling.
 
I know some would disagree but its a matter of physics and science. You can only extract what is there. So given that most audiophile carts have frequency response below and above human hearing, 1/2 DB channel balance...and dead inert tables, you are then at the mercy of the mastering. You cant be $290,000 better. Just doesn't happen
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 7:27 PM Post #2,181 of 3,585
$5k-6k was EXACTLY what I was thinking, $10k as the whole system (VPI turntable, Benz cart, Macintosh integrated, Klipsch Heresy's)
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 8:02 PM Post #2,182 of 3,585
  $5k-6k was EXACTLY what I was thinking, $10k as the whole system (VPI turntable, Benz cart, Macintosh integrated, Klipsch Heresy's)

I was good right up to the Klipsch Heresy's.
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 8:10 PM Post #2,183 of 3,585
  I was good right up to the Klipsch Heresy's.


Too funny...
 
I have approx. $7500 invested in my system - $3000 of that is dedicated to vinyl (table, cart, phono stage, cables, custom cover). To be honest, there is really nothing I want to change out...if I did, it would be a major investment in new speakers which to me are the hardest of all to get just right..
 
As to Klipsch...not a fan either....LOL...That's why we have choices...
wink_face.gif

 
Jan 27, 2014 at 8:22 PM Post #2,184 of 3,585
 
I have to agree...honestly, once you get over 5k to 6k (Such as a VPI Classic III), you are showing your cash. The percentage of increase in sound from a 5k table to a 15k table MIGHT be 1%..after that ...nada...Its like having a solid gold razor or jewel encased cel phone. Did they work better ? No...just bling.
 
I know some would disagree but its a matter of physics and science. You can only extract what is there. So given that most audiophile carts have frequency response below and above human hearing, 1/2 DB channel balance...and dead inert tables, you are then at the mercy of the mastering. You cant be $290,000 better. Just doesn't happen

It is not only money. If the 300K table is just a smidge worse adjusted than say a 5 K table, the better adjusted 5K table wins - ALWAYS. Azimuth is the most critical - has to be adjusted perfectly - to below 1/3rd of a degree for best results. This is made easier today using Fosgometer or Clearaudio "device" or Feickert - but can also be done using an oscilloscope. 
 
If you had any idea how big are "errors" in recording and mastering, you would stop worrying about half a dB here or there - or cables ( the only exception the most sensitive one, from the tonearm to the phono preamp - to make matters worse, exactly TOTALLY opposite requirements for MM than MC - today almost everything available is MC friendly and MM hostile ..) .
 
I used to have 5 tonearms on the same TT, capable of simultaneous playback. Unless the carts had severe limitations in trackability and/or distortion, the main factor in SQ is frequency response. That 1/2 dB (and quite some more) is correctable by a QUALITY equalizer - before anyone starts waving with a cross and hawthorn to fend off this "vampire", a good demo of cart + EQ is required; I prefer cart with requency response that can be corrected using good EQ and superb tracking/distortion over one with flat response and even slight limitations in trackiability/distortion. Some Grados are positively divine properly EQed... 
 
I started to record because very quickly during my development of TTs it became clear that most, even the best recordings on vinyl are hopelessly compressed, limited in bass, etc, etc - some of this is unfortunately really limited by what can be put on disc, quite some totally unnecessary, much also have stamp of the original equipment they were recorded with - etc. There were/are very few vinyls that have (almost) no limitations - most notable are perhaps direct to disks from Miller & Kreisel. No wonder Ken Kreisel, who recorded them, used Grado's best cart at the time, the Signature 2 for monitoring the pressings - those very carts were on sale on ebay about 1 year ago. Although I never had any of those Signatures, I do have a few better Grado styli from that era - and after a good disk is heard
without the usual compression impaired by most of MCs of present ( most are uncapable of +18 dB @ 300 Hz ), returning to +15 dB @ 300 Hz or less cart is hard indeed. Present day Grados do not have this capability, for the most part at least. The best Grados are SUPERB trackers - +18dB@300 Hz equals approx amplitude of 90 micrometers - and best Grados exceed 100 micrometer mark, some even 110; dynamics literally explode, there is no breakup of sound even in the largest climaxes in operas; Joe Grado was a quite active opera singer ... - and it shows.
 
No matter how flat it is; if it can not convey the full dynamics/bass, it will sound constricted ... - never happens in live music.
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 9:02 PM Post #2,185 of 3,585
AnalogS - I agree with 98% of what you said..HEY ..we agree...LOL
 
And nothing can be like live music but we try our best...live music is amazing...well..except maybe rap..in which case I'll take an 8-track please..lOL
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 9:08 PM Post #2,186 of 3,585
  AnalogS - I agree with 98% of what you said..HEY ..we agree...LOL
 
And nothing can be like live music but we try our best...live music is amazing...well..except maybe rap..in which case I'll take an 8-track please..lOL

The only unamplified live music is classical, solo, chamber, symphonic and opera.  Otherwise, you're mostly listening to a PA.  It's fun to see performers make music but most of the time you're at the mercy of the electronics they're playing through.  
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 9:26 PM Post #2,187 of 3,585
  The only unamplified live music is classical, solo, chamber, symphonic and opera.  Otherwise, you're mostly listening to a PA.  It's fun to see performers make music but most of the time you're at the mercy of the electronics they're playing through.  

Mostly true - but one of the best "sounds" I heard - EVER - was jazz; Nat Adderly Quartet, as guest in the show called Izza odra ( Backstage ), run for a number of years by Brane Rončel (pronounced close to Ronchel), in the big studio 1 of TV Slovenija. Best PA in the world - NONE. With the quartet no more than 2 metres from my seat.
It was the last time I succumbed to the thrill & excitement after the concert by buying a CD - yUUUCKKK !!!
 
Here one of the few Izza odra to survive on youtube : 
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 9:36 PM Post #2,188 of 3,585
  AnalogS - I agree with 98% of what you said..HEY ..we agree...LOL
 
And nothing can be like live music but we try our best...live music is amazing...well..except maybe rap..in which case I'll take an 8-track please..lOL

Arcorob, we are not that different - let's say I am "a couple of full moons" older and therefore more experienced. You are in exactly the age range where people are prone to believe they have the whole knowledge covered -  I used to be much the same LOL. 
 
After "a few more full moons "... - main thing: we both love music, we would not be fiddlin' with TTs otherwise !
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 9:51 PM Post #2,189 of 3,585
I started out with a Pioneer PL-15 belt driven automatic with a $20 upgraded Audio Technica cartridge circa late 70's.
 
It may not have been high end, but it still sounded better than any CD I heard at that time.  Forced to give up vinyl because artists were releasing only CD's, I'm glad to return to what I loved.
 
The previous discussion about TT cost/value was very helpful.  
 
Jan 27, 2014 at 9:58 PM Post #2,190 of 3,585
  $5k-6k was EXACTLY what I was thinking, $10k as the whole system (VPI turntable, Benz cart, Macintosh integrated, Klipsch Heresy's)

Klipsch Heresy is aptly named - it is exactly that.
 
I am not a fan of Klipsch, although K-Horns and to a lesser degree La Scala give lease of real dynamics so sadly lacking in most otherwise great/better "normal" speakers.
 
Still, with music that does not rely too heavily on bass, Heresy can sound amazing at times - not exactly merrying kind, but always worth turning around ...
 

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