[Ipek]

The Topping D70s outputs XLR at 5V.
I have a pair of Neumann KH 80 DSP active speakers, with stated maximum input: +24 dBu for 94 dB SPL setting/ +18 dBu for 100 dB SPL setting/ +10 dBu for 108 dB SPL setting/ +4 dBu for 114 dB SPL setting
Can the speakers take the 5V XLR without clipping or damage? Thanks.

5v is about +16dBu

and for your future reference, +24dBu is about 12Vrms.

 

[Rantenti]

5v is about +16dBu

and for your future reference, +24dBu is about 12Vrms.

Thank you for your advice!

 

[Crisppacket]

I'm looking to upgrade from a Loxjie D30 and am considering the D70s MQA.
I like the AKM sound and want the balanced out.

I'll be using primarily as a USB DAC, but also optical and coaxial for TV/bluray.

I read another thread someone had pops when changing TV channels using optical.

Does the Topping D70s have any pops or clicks between tracks or when switching inputs?
Any crackles or audio dropouts during playback?

 

[sajunky]

'D30' should trigger a warning against Topping.

 

[Crisppacket]

'D30' should trigger a warning against Topping.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.
I have a Loxjie D30, not a Topping D30.

 

[Vandal]

Measurements can be helping finding out design faults, otherwise are useless. A difference between XU-208 and 216 is minimal. It can be a small inherent jitter in 208, but is very easy to avoid it, designers had a time to learn how to do it.

Why only Topping DACs on the list? There is Zen DAC and a very promising Bifrost 2, a nice multibit implementation. But a real jump to a natural sound is possible at a similar price to D90. It is Denafrips Ares II and Audio GD R-1. These are true R2R DACs with NOS option. Both with balanced ladders, R-1 has additionally I2S port.

I purchased Topping D30, it was one of the best measuring on ASR, but It sounds like a S$%^t. A Nobsound 8xTDA1387 DAC/HPA ($42) replaced Topping on my desk for one year. Now is Audio GD R2R-11 ($350). It is R2R DAC, comes with Amanero USB module and Class A headphone amplifier. It has a separate resistors ladder for decoding DSD, but more important is that quality of a CD playback is better than a software decoded MQA on DS DACs, go figure and try R2R. @Poganin, the are two Audio GD dealers in Poland, get a demo.

Isn't it true that R2R DACs tend to not be good at the lower frequency spectrum reproduction, and that's why are a bit of a no-no?

 

[sajunky]

Isn't it true that R2R DACs tend to not be good at the lower frequency spectrum reproduction, and that's why are a bit of a no-no?

I am not aware of such technology limitation. In NOS mode there is 3dB roll off @_20khz and a similar 3dB boom at low frequencies, the only things. It is a specific characteristic of NOS (not present when oversampling), your question is about R2R in general.

 

[Riccitone]

I’m in a similar quandary at the moment. Some very interesting insights here concerning signal path, fewer (or no) caps, r2r va d/s as Jeep here suggested. I was pulled into this thread at the promise of some insight relative to the D70s having what reviewers claim as almost resistor ladder qualities, dual akm’s, nice output stage and components etc. But am still leaning toward r2r. I’m currently on an airist r2r now, impressive sounding…just seems a bit disorganized and blurry on faster passages or with tracks with layers on layers. Simpler tracks seem divine. Also would like a more modern dac with I2s implementation. Has anyone here sampled the Musician Pegasus or even the cheaper Draco? Or would these have similar outcomes to the Ares ii? Don’t know if this is correct but I read somewhere that denafrips might be a “parent” company to Musican? Anyway, thank you for the knowledge by way of discussion.

 

[sajunky]

But am still leaning toward r2r. I’m currently on an airist r2r now, impressive sounding…just seems a bit disorganized and blurry on faster passages or with tracks with layers on layers. Simpler tracks seem divine. Also would like a more modern dac with I2s implementation. Has anyone here sampled the Musician Pegasus or even the cheaper Draco? Or would these have similar outcomes to the Ares ii? Don’t know if this is correct but I read somewhere that denafrips might be a “parent” company to Musican? Anyway, thank you for the knowledge by way of discussion.

Airist is a discrete R2R, but the output stage is made of opamps, many of them. Ladder DACs produce fast transients, it is why an active I/V conversion with use of opamps (and further for buffering) is insufficient, especially in NOS mode without digital filtering (smoothing a sound). It is why Airist fails on SQ. For Musician DACs search this forum, there are couple threads. These are similar in design to Denafrips, very likely coming from the same design desk and factory. Pegasus motherboard was probably intended as a replacement for Ares II wih a new I2S port feature, but this port didn't work properly, in result Ares still do not have I2S port. But Pegasus was selling with non-functioning HDMI port for a year, nobody noticed so long. These are pitfals of purchasing a sub-brand.

The output stage of all of them is passive (avoiding Airist's sound degradation), but for the user it is not a relief, it must be a quality amplification on the downstream audio channel, otherwise ultrasonic frequency images intermodulate with its products leaking to the audio band. A non-standard (high) output impedance has to be matched with pre-amp. And recently it came out that Denafrips NOS feature is not really NOS, the same as Holo Audio is not NOS, but in a different way.

For the same price of Airist, Audio GD was selling R2R-11. It is a DAC I use now, free of the above limitations and marketing cheating about NOS. I upgraded clocks on Amanero Combo384 module, bringing it to a higher level. Grab it if you still can, as currently is out of production. For a balanced version with I2S feature you can go with R-1 model 2021, it is now coming standard with fem-to-second Accusilicon clocks for <$900. It is what I can tell.

 

[Riccitone]

I wanted to upgrade my dac half a year ago. I had an ES9038Q2M dac that sounds very nice, a modified 8x tda1543 same as my little mini 4x1543 NOS dac. The 9038 had BT, DSD decoding, modern dac that sounds very good. The 8x1543 is better in natural sound, stress-free reproduction. So i was looking at SMSL M400 or Denafrips Ares II. I chose the Ares because I just know and hear that R2R is better. MQA isn't really a bonus.

So after receiving the Ares I was impressed with my 'first real' (entry) high end dac on the level I am used to from the rest of my old system. Build is great, unpresuming. Lots of inputs. The sound is also as I thought it would be; very quiet background, a bit narrower soundstage compared to the es9038q2m but the same as the 1543 and very deep and well defined.

I wasn't sure if everything is there like in the 8xTDA1543 because it sounds a bit darker, smoother. So I played some native dsd64 material. That means usb input. That really shows what the Ares is capable of. There is no rolled off highs, just like it should be. Nothing added and nothing taken away, very natural. Very spacious, clean wide and deep. Tonality and timbres are great. I get bass, mid, treble presented like its just there. I get bass slam, speed and depth. My Genesis subamp driven speakers aren't shy in that department. I only have 1 DSD128 recording, of Brahms 1 (Barenboim, BP), that really takes up a lot of data space. But it doesn't disappoint. It's again one step closer to thinking your in the Berlin concerthall. I can hear the musicians but also the depth, width and height of the venue.

So what about the other inputs? Does that make a difference?
I use toslink for my android tv, that means tv series and movies (no talking heads! so fed up with the daily 2h of hate and propaganda), Netflix (so much better quality video and sound quality), youtube etc can sound surprisingly good, DLNA is limited to 48kHz but sounds very good, much like the USB input.
Next is the coax. That means cd-player (and DP5, later). Something I don't use often. I just bought a new Shanling because a was fed up with non-working old cd-players and haven't played any for over 5 years. But now guess what. This is a bit too creamy. It IS rolled off. Very relaxing and very sweet but not something I like. Can it be the Shanling Tempo drive? So routing back to the 1543 and there's the complete picture. Fresh and limited air (this is not getting me back into cd's!). So now feed the Ares coax with the DP5 and 24-96 pcm. That does get better, less rolled off. In all honesty I can't remember how this compares to usb, i think its still a bit rolled off but less so. But I'm not limiting the high res DP5 to the coax out.

So far I really like the performance of the Ares. I knew it would have better inputs than my own TDA1543 's and I also expected a little bit of veiling because of the output caps (it's not a Terminator+ level output). But yes, this is completely true; it's a lot better and somewhat worse in different aspects. But that is a personal consideration because there are no dacs on the market like the vintage budget level dac-chips I to which I modified the output to just how I want them. 'Cause you can't sell 'm like that.
It's a bit like the Mitsubishi Zero airplane, stripped of all armor to reach Pearl Harbour or the Porsche RS (only I took it even further and took out the headlights, seatbelts, passenger seat etc. ie not permitted on the road) Yes the TDA1543 is a limited budget solution that is limited to 24-96 but I pull everything out that is possible. And the Ares is a discrete R2R with also a passive output but adhering to commercial standards.

So how about a head to head (Ares, DP5 internal 9038pro, tda1543) with my old reference tracks I used to get that old Philips TDA1543 chip to shine. Well it's also a matter of taste. So I don't know if this is helpful to you. I always use Sakamoto & Morelenbaum²-Casa (tr1: a praya deserta) , bossa nova with pno, cello, female singer in a private studio with birds chirping in the background. And David Sylvian - Secrets to the beehive (tr6: When poets dreamed of angels) singer, 5 guitars (arr Sakamoto, again) percussion, strings, very wide and deep soundstage, guitars in a semi circle around the singer. Spot the guitars! Both tracks only 16-44

It starts with a pianoloop,bossa and birds.
The DP5 did as expected and went into overmodulation. Harsh and stressed. The singer was nice and natural, right amount of space, very wide, no borders or walls. And when she gets loud, on sustained notes there's the over modulation again. I can hear the birds but they're cut off at sustain.
The Ares did the same on the opening notes. And the singer. Only smoother, quieter background, a bit narrower but there's a sense of venue. You can hear the size of the room. Mesmerizing sound. I can hear the birds chirping, sound coming in and out without being cut off. Besides the start very nice.
Then the cheap 4x1543. A bit less loud (3dB?) But surprise, surprise! Perfect pianoloop! And no, it's not the recording and not the amplifier (turned it up). It's in the output stage of the dac. No cringing, no toecurling. Just music. The venue is open but defined, birds coming in through the window (ok, thin walls). The singer is singing freely, no rolled off highs. Is there a slight sense of hiss or grain? No, not really. It's just very much like being there. But different than DSD128 on the Ares, like the 1543 is a single malt islay and the Ares is Baileys. Not everybody likes islay because it's so peaty but it sure has balls and character. And I love it. So to my taste a resounding knock out in round 1 by the 4x1543!

Track 2; guitars and fast transients and deep space.
The DP5 performs well. A bit (over) sparkly on the guitars but staccato. Voice convincing. Deep space indeed. Very wide. Guitars attacking like mosquitos in the dark. Where is that coming from? Too late... It's a couple of guitars. 3? 4? 5? Where exactly? Still beautiful music and 'perfectly reproduced' if you wouldn't have heard...
The Ares. Now here's the blackness of space. There's a man singing in the middle. A guitar plucking with nails. All the way right, left, middle, mid right, more left, all together. it's a clear semi circle. This music is so good, minimalistic but emotive. The lyrics are gripping dangerous poetry. Again, this is forgetting. Forgetting...
The true minimalist. Is it a Shigiraki clone? No, but something like it. 4x1543. I'm a bit out of words here. So just whats different from the Ares. Why do I like this better? This is not dark space, not white space like in 'The Matrix' but it's dark space like you know there is light but it's not reflecting on anything and there are no lights. But when the guitars play you can almost see it. Still a game of 'spot the guitar' because they alternate so quickly. The singer is in the middle. No spotlight on him or the guitars like the DP5 9038 does but normal, dimmed slightly high color temperature (whitish) light. This is just why I like this music so much. Just as I remember it only now even better since when I played it (to often) on my system from 8y ago.

I know thise tracks are both small setting. I have not really sat down for comparative listening of complex music or electronic music. But from just listening to the Ares it didn't drop the ball anywhere. Wide symphony orchestra or Infected Mushroom, Rammstein, Zomby, organ music, Renaissance, Nina Simone, Miles, Jazz at the Pawnshop (although I missed some air there dsd vs vinyl).

So, I think it's a great dac but even I still severely underestimated my own little dac. I'm really not trying to pat myself on the back here but I was sincerely surprised (disappointed and elated at the same time). Now enjoying DP5 >4x1543 and tv>Ares.

Very interesting findings you’ve made here. Pretty enlightening for me, as I’ve been curious about just what different chip implementations could mean. Is your 1543 x 8 true Phillips (can’t remember if that was what you were referring to as “can’t find ‘em anymore”).
How did you mod yours to get closer to what you wanted?

in other words, Im guessing this one wouldn’t quite get there:

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/40010...&terminal_id=28d4a170f24e4da5ab6054191d670685

thanks

 

[]eep]

Very interesting findings you’ve made here. Pretty enlightening for me, as I’ve been curious about just what different chip implementations could mean. Is your 1543 x 8 true Phillips (can’t remember if that was what you were referring to as “can’t find ‘em anymore”).
How did you mod yours to get closer to what you wanted?

in other words, Im guessing this one wouldn’t quite get there:

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/40010...&terminal_id=28d4a170f24e4da5ab6054191d670685

thanks

Nooooo. The Lite dac sucks. It has bad power supply and worst of all, it has 2 opamps murdering the sound. I've modified it for a friend (from a different forum) and it's very hard to work on. The case is horrible. I can recommend the Teradak however. Great dac. Easy to mod and great inputs, can do 24/96 over sp/dif as well as async usb.

You could also have a look here : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/nos-dac-better-than-nobsound-tda1387.938079/page-7#post-16566265

If you do a Google search you can still find the Muse 4x1543 Nos dac. And a lot of posts from me. It seems it is not in production anymore. There is however a very cheap single 1543 chip 47labs clone as mentioned in above thread. It can't do high res but it can give you a taste of Nos r2r for beer money. With a little mod (bypass the output filter, ie caps) it's quite the overperformer.

 

[Riccitone]

Nooooo. The Lite dac sucks. It has bad power supply and worst of all, it has 2 opamps murdering the sound. I've modified it for a friend (from a different forum) and it's very hard to work on. The case is horrible. I can recommend the Teradak however. Great dac. Easy to mod and great inputs, can do 24/96 over sp/dif as well as async usb.

You could also have a look here : https://www.head-fi.org/threads/nos-dac-better-than-nobsound-tda1387.938079/page-7#post-16566265

If you do a Google search you can still find the Muse 4x1543 Nos dac. And a lot of posts from me. It seems it is not in production anymore. There is however a very cheap single 1543 chip 47labs clone as mentioned in above thread. It can't do high res but it can give you a taste of Nos r2r for beer money. With a little mod (bypass the output filter, ie caps) it's quite the overperformer.

Very cool to know there are a couple of options! Yeah…wasn’t getting a good feeling from that lite dac. Found both the Muse and the Teradak (Teradak here):

https://m.aliexpress.com/i/32829324745.html

Teradak looks really solid! Curious how the Teradak would sound in comparison to my Airist r2r, even before any mods - which I’d be hard pressed to execute with my very limited soldering skills…would most likely fry something upon plugging in.

Also found this 6moons article on the Chameleon Teradak, the answer from the company to so many mods performed/discussed in this forum!

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/teradak/chameleon.html

Might this be part for your handiwork? Anyway, interesting and affordable choices that I wonder how would compare/contrast (still) with the latest dacs.

 

[mBenPhoto]

I own a Topping D70S since March 2021 and over the following months compared it vs other dacs, some owned and some borrowed, including the Topping D90.

Some background and context.

I bought the D70S having being adviced by a friend, who designs and builds top level tube amps. All the tests and comparisons have been made both blind and "subjective", with matched levels and same test tracks (I can provide the list), in my friend's reference system (Bladelius Embla server/dac, 4 chassis tube pre + power, Avantgarde speakers) and my personal system (Macbook Pro/Audirvana, MBL custom pre + power, Dynaudio Special Forty speakers). I help my friend when he tunes amps and systems, and we always follow the same evaluation procedure.

I am convinced that it is quite difficult to triangulate a dac performance from other people's comments, as it is influenced by listeners' tastes and, mainly, by dac's synergy with the existing system: in other words, what works for me in my (somewhat unforgiving but greatly musical) system may not work for anyone else.

Both mine and my friends' D70S were tested side by side the following dacs (I was present at all tests):

- Bladelius Embla (my friend's reference, although he added the D70S downstream via AES EBU bypassing the internal Embla dac)
- Soncoz SGD1 (owned)
- Schiit Yggdrasil A1 Unison (borrowed)
- Denafrips Pontus I, original DSP card (borrowed)
- Musician Pegasus (owned)
- Topping D90 (borrowed)

Compared to the D90, the D70s is more extended and "present" in the bass region (tested with piano octaves); going upwards the D90 tends to show some "stridency" in the upper midrange / treble areas. The D70S results more "musical" and "harmonic" than the D90, with a stereo image more extended on the three axis, while the D90 sounds more two-dimensional. On resolving power, both are in the same ballpark, but the D90 brings a hint of listening fatigue with some materials due to its upper registers performance.

As an additional anecdote, both the two friends/clients attending the test, each owning a D90, bought the D70S after the test.

In case of interest for the other comparisons, here some quick notes:

vs Bladelius Embla (a 13.000 Euros beast): I personally prefer the majestic musicality of the Embla, but it resolves less details than the D70S (my "tube friend" actually bypassed the Embla's dac permanently);

vs Soncoz SGD1: no contest with the D70S, as the SGD1 is anemic in the bass region, shows excessive "grit" in the voice region, particularly with male voices, and has an inferior resolving power (choirs are "muddled", whereas the D70S pinpoints every head);

vs Yggdrasil: the Schiit is comparable to the D70S in the bass region, shows better midrange and voices realism, but has a very intrusive and annoying upper midrange - treble sort of enhancement (think about a constant tizz - tizz - tizz in rock tracks). Outside that intrusive treble, I would consider the Yggdrasil overall better than the D70S, but the upper register invasivity was the deal breaker. Looking forward to audition the newly released "Less is more";

vs Pontus I: another "no contest", the Denafrips sounding "bunched in the middle", with undefined bass and a "disembodied" and "cavernous" performance with female voices (more on that with the Pegasus). An easy win for the D70S, although I have the itch to buy the Pontus II after my brief ownership of the Pegasus;

vs Musician Pegasus: the Pegasus started badly, needing 300 hours of burn in before ironing out. But its fundamentals did not change: compared to the D70S, Pegasus' transients are "slower", resulting in less perceived details and a bass region which has body but lacks contours. In a few words, the Pegasus "paints" whereas the D70S "sculpts”, so to speak. The Pegasus is very good with some male voices but, like the Pontus I, gives some female voices (Patricia Barber) a "recessed" character. Some female voices (Laura Fygi) are hair-raising, though. Pegasus upper midrange and treble are softer than in the D70S, more pleasant in a way. In the end, the D70S is more "engaging" with 90% of music. Since I hate switching dacs according to what I listen, the Pegasus went away. Those considerations made me think about the Pontus II.

I understand the initial inquiry was about D70S vs D90, and I added more - probably too much.

Personally, I consider the D70S one of the best "affordable" d/s dacs available. Its Achilles heel can be a sometimes "pointy" upeer register tones - which can also be dependant on materials played, tweeter or anything in between.

Happy to explain and discuss further.

M

 

[]eep]

Very cool to know there are a couple of options! Yeah…wasn’t getting a good feeling from that lite dac. Found both the Muse and the Teradak (Teradak here):

https://m.aliexpress.com/i/32829324745.html

Teradak looks really solid! Curious how the Teradak would sound in comparison to my Airist r2r, even before any mods - which I’d be hard pressed to execute with my very limited soldering skills…would most likely fry something upon plugging in.

Also found this 6moons article on the Chameleon Teradak, the answer from the company to so many mods performed/discussed in this forum!

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/teradak/chameleon.html

Might this be part for your handiwork? Anyway, interesting and affordable choices that I wonder how would compare/contrast (still) with the latest dacs.

Not to go too far OT. No, it just gave me inspiration. The simpler Teradak was all I could afford then. It doesn't need any mods on input V on the TDA1543 chips. The huge caps they used in the chameleon are pure overkill.

 

[Riccitone]

@mBenPhoto
I know this gets speculative when it comes to final decisions based on our own systems, but that was an excellent and very telling explanation of what to look for in the d70s in comparison to many of the go-to's in this discussion. Of course, here I am quoting my system in use: RPi3B+ Allo Digione running Volumio, Airist audio r2r, Creek Evolution 50A, Quad s2's. Overall a revealing system, lots of nice transients...but to a limited degree. The Airist seems o get a bit congested at times, depending on the tracks. I had a Schitt modi 2 uber that did not even come close in the body of tone, transients, stage, depth etc. But almost seemed to outpace the Arist. Overall, thinking my setup is rather "neutral" to give one word. But it is engaging and dynamic. No tubes in the line, but it looks like the d70s would be a good choice. Now wondering about an NOS dac... Anyhow, really learning a lot here regardless!