[Honeypot]

It is a sound plan to get used to your new amp first. Improvements should be done incremental. Not just for knowi g what does what but also for better appreciating what you have. (nice amp btw) Just take your time and enjoy.

It is true that dacs have improved a lot, but the artificial detail is not part of that. If you increase the source samplefrequency (not bitdepth) you get more real detail (if it's in the recording in the first place), ànd... you make it easier on the filtering of (after) the dac because you can use less agressive slopes. The thing is though, delta sigma create a lot of HF noise that has to be filtered. What I did, no filter at all on NOS R2R, is not possible (or advisable ) on DS.

I remember listening at my dealer to the first bitstream dac (on my request). It had a lot of detail. But not much else. Neither were there any other cd-players that sounded remotely like my Linn turntable btw. Those old R2R's suffered from bad filtering, oversampling, just overall no good implementation. Oversampling has the effect shown in this picture. And DS does this a lot. Just from the scope you can see there's more 'there' there, as they say. Only it's not real. That's why i said 'artificial detail'.

With a good R2R dac you do not lose detail, you don't lose any information. You just don't get any extra swings before the real transient masquerading as 'detail'. This is closer to natural sound, less confusing to our brain and therefore less fatiguing.

At first i read the text fast, then a second read have made me fully understand you.
Thank you for spending the time explaining it to me =D

If I remember correctly, it was 16bits enough for depth.

 

[sajunky]

At first i read the text fast, then a second read have made me fully understand you.
Thank you for spending the time explaining it to me =D

If I remember correctly, it was 16bits enough for depth.

In practice 20 bits is the highest linear accuracy can be achieved physically. I used a term 'accuracy' intentionally, is not the same as resolution. 24-bit is for the reason of packing bits the same way as 20-bits. It takes the same storage space. Are other bits redundant? Almost. More resistors helps little bit randomizing errors of conversion. These bits can also be used by a control logic to partially compensate MSBits mismatch, but I am not sure it is done this way in Audio GD DAC's or a Soekris new DAC2541. The earlier Soekris DACs do not use compensation, the same Denafrips. Holo Audio deploy extra resistor network for compensation. I don't think it is the best method though.

 

[]eep]

You can use 32 bit if you want but it's only of any use if you use digital volume adjustment or mixing like in a studio (you discard bits so if you reduce the volume on 16b you can end up with 14 or 12 bits, not enough). I've tried it several times with a panel of friends and alone but I really can't hear any improvement using 24 over 16 bit. But a 24b flac is double the size. So if i recode (to save space on mobile or SD card) I recode to 16/96.

I/we also tried to hear the difference between 96 and 192kHz and there's a slight improvement. Above that... meh. It makes it easier on the filtering but takes up a lot more bandwidth. And my 4x TDA1543 sounds better on 96kHz than anything I heard yet. So why bother? Well, I like to keep files as high as i can get them, after all; would you rip the edges off the Nightwatch by Rembrand because it's to big for the wall? (oh dang, they did!). Yup, lost forever. Fortunately my files are just copies.

One thing that really does sound better, as I first found out on a ES9038Q2M is native DSD. If you can get it.

The same goes for MQA, it's nice if you can get it but i think 16-44 on a good R2R sounds better than MQA on a DS dac (with an extra €100 license fee included).

 

[Honeypot]

Wow between the two of you, there is enough knowledge to build a rocket.

I will read both posts later on after work and try to search and undertand every concept you are mentioning.

What are your backgrounds guys?

Is this a hobby? Or you dedicate your life's at the sound industry?

 

[]eep]

at the moment I'm making solid bamboo furniture, and also the kind that fills rooms with music. Audio has always been my interest since I decided I wanted to listen to the radio when I was 14. Never stopped. And I was never afraid to take things apart or build things in the basement. I studied building construction (so one of the few who studied acoustics) and electronics is all self education.

I have sold a few products already but I wouldn't presume to be in 'the industry' just yet., I did make 4 turntables today but they are of the lazy jane type

 

[Honeypot]

That's very impressive to me =D
I've been musician from 12 to 26.
Then started on computer science and since it provided me for living, i kept music as a hobby.
But, let's go back to dacs and d/s vs r2r.
I am almost certain i will go for the denafrips ares II.
Audio-gd r1 also has my eyes, specially since I can buy it in audiophonics.fr for 800€ w.o extra customs.
The ares is 640€, shipping and customs aside...
I yet have no cash, and will try to stay a couple/3 more months with the dx7-pro as a dac.
Everyday with the new amp i discover new things. So bringing a new dac will make this setup entirely new.

 

[cglin222]

Will d70s sound better than d70 if I don’t use mqa ?

 

[Honeypot]

I've seen a few reviews saying it sounds better than d90. I personally believe the differences are going to be marginal.
You can do an educated guess based on asr measurements, reviews...
But until you try, there won't be a real difference. This is like a schrodinger cat.
Do you have d70 and you are looking for a new dac?
If so, do yourself a favor and consider more options, as I did with this topic. It's only a couple pages but it can help you too.







But then again, how can you believe a youtuber? Is he paid to say so?

How can you believe measurements? When they show only a marginal part of the picture?

Up to you!

 

[]eep]

no comment on ASR... other than utterly useless other than meaningless specs
midfi man, ok review (only does he get anything over midfi, like hifi?)
next best thing: I always find him spot on. I haven't seen 1 review of him I really disagree with (and I am quite critical, yesterday I saw Steve Guttenberg on high res and I was going 'really?' I can show you're wrong in like 2 seconds). Given the collection of vintage speakers he has in his basement and which ones, I think I'm not that concerned about payments.

 

[Honeypot]

What are you trying to say?
I have read like 10 pages of the denafrips review on asr and i can only say I partially understand you, but again I could be tripping. Or I am very dumb =D

 

[]eep]

I'm saying ASR are dumb flatearthers (a term I heard another engineer mention that is quite appropriate for people only half understanding science and making bold statements based on belief). They only buy stuff to show off their expensive measuring equipment and oftentimes even refuse to listen to them (like hooking up 1 speaker for 15 minutes and thats it). It is like they say it is and everybody else is duped. I avoid their site and youtube vids because it really irritates me.

Measuring should be regarded as a helpful tool for engineers if everything works as it should. Not for qualitative judgements. You can use a spectrograph and röntgen photos to check an old painting if its real but it doesnt help you appreciate an old Rembrandt or Klimt. And yes, I do own several (inexpensive but) real paintings and not just ikea posters (1 for acoustic treatment).

I don't know about the Ares review, i guess its praised as an anachronistic well measuring R2R DAC. Because they shouldn't and they couldn't and they can't and all the others were ridiculed because of well... science. You should never doubt science!

Don't let anybody tell you you are dumb. Think for yourself.

 

[Honeypot]

I agree with you. Measurements just say a part of the story. I was musician and in some way, i will never stop being one, but music it's not something you put in a graph. Do any of these tools measure my feelings regarding a guitar rift? No... However it can sound different and it's frequency it's just one of the many quantitative units.
For me it's rather easy. I listen, i observe and not only check for the fancy technicalities, but go for how does it moves me...how well does it transport me to a real stage, feeling the amps close (and i was drummer!) . In easier terms, how close to real is that sound to me.

I understand some ppl stay with the graphs... I just take their opinion as another input... Who knows what happens with that input then...

Can I ask what is your opinion on the subject ares ii?

I ask because I appreciate your opinion

 

[]eep]

I wanted to upgrade my dac half a year ago. I had an ES9038Q2M dac that sounds very nice, a modified 8x tda1543 same as my little mini 4x1543 NOS dac. The 9038 had BT, DSD decoding, modern dac that sounds very good. The 8x1543 is better in natural sound, stress-free reproduction. So i was looking at SMSL M400 or Denafrips Ares II. I chose the Ares because I just know and hear that R2R is better. MQA isn't really a bonus.

So after receiving the Ares I was impressed with my 'first real' (entry) high end dac on the level I am used to from the rest of my old system. Build is great, unpresuming. Lots of inputs. The sound is also as I thought it would be; very quiet background, a bit narrower soundstage compared to the es9038q2m but the same as the 1543 and very deep and well defined.

I wasn't sure if everything is there like in the 8xTDA1543 because it sounds a bit darker, smoother. So I played some native dsd64 material. That means usb input. That really shows what the Ares is capable of. There is no rolled off highs, just like it should be. Nothing added and nothing taken away, very natural. Very spacious, clean wide and deep. Tonality and timbres are great. I get bass, mid, treble presented like its just there. I get bass slam, speed and depth. My Genesis subamp driven speakers aren't shy in that department. I only have 1 DSD128 recording, of Brahms 1 (Barenboim, BP), that really takes up a lot of data space. But it doesn't disappoint. It's again one step closer to thinking your in the Berlin concerthall. I can hear the musicians but also the depth, width and height of the venue.

So what about the other inputs? Does that make a difference?
I use toslink for my android tv, that means tv series and movies (no talking heads! so fed up with the daily 2h of hate and propaganda), Netflix (so much better quality video and sound quality), youtube etc can sound surprisingly good, DLNA is limited to 48kHz but sounds very good, much like the USB input.
Next is the coax. That means cd-player (and DP5, later). Something I don't use often. I just bought a new Shanling because a was fed up with non-working old cd-players and haven't played any for over 5 years. But now guess what. This is a bit too creamy. It IS rolled off. Very relaxing and very sweet but not something I like. Can it be the Shanling Tempo drive? So routing back to the 1543 and there's the complete picture. Fresh and limited air (this is not getting me back into cd's!). So now feed the Ares coax with the DP5 and 24-96 pcm. That does get better, less rolled off. In all honesty I can't remember how this compares to usb, i think its still a bit rolled off but less so. But I'm not limiting the high res DP5 to the coax out.

So far I really like the performance of the Ares. I knew it would have better inputs than my own TDA1543 's and I also expected a little bit of veiling because of the output caps (it's not a Terminator+ level output). But yes, this is completely true; it's a lot better and somewhat worse in different aspects. But that is a personal consideration because there are no dacs on the market like the vintage budget level dac-chips I to which I modified the output to just how I want them. 'Cause you can't sell 'm like that.
It's a bit like the Mitsubishi Zero airplane, stripped of all armor to reach Pearl Harbour or the Porsche RS (only I took it even further and took out the headlights, seatbelts, passenger seat etc. ie not permitted on the road) Yes the TDA1543 is a limited budget solution that is limited to 24-96 but I pull everything out that is possible. And the Ares is a discrete R2R with also a passive output but adhering to commercial standards.

So how about a head to head (Ares, DP5 internal 9038pro, tda1543) with my old reference tracks I used to get that old Philips TDA1543 chip to shine. Well it's also a matter of taste. So I don't know if this is helpful to you. I always use Sakamoto & Morelenbaum²-Casa (tr1: a praya deserta) , bossa nova with pno, cello, female singer in a private studio with birds chirping in the background. And David Sylvian - Secrets to the beehive (tr6: When poets dreamed of angels) singer, 5 guitars (arr Sakamoto, again) percussion, strings, very wide and deep soundstage, guitars in a semi circle around the singer. Spot the guitars! Both tracks only 16-44

It starts with a pianoloop,bossa and birds.
The DP5 did as expected and went into overmodulation. Harsh and stressed. The singer was nice and natural, right amount of space, very wide, no borders or walls. And when she gets loud, on sustained notes there's the over modulation again. I can hear the birds but they're cut off at sustain.
The Ares did the same on the opening notes. And the singer. Only smoother, quieter background, a bit narrower but there's a sense of venue. You can hear the size of the room. Mesmerizing sound. I can hear the birds chirping, sound coming in and out without being cut off. Besides the start very nice.
Then the cheap 4x1543. A bit less loud (3dB?) But surprise, surprise! Perfect pianoloop! And no, it's not the recording and not the amplifier (turned it up). It's in the output stage of the dac. No cringing, no toecurling. Just music. The venue is open but defined, birds coming in through the window (ok, thin walls). The singer is singing freely, no rolled off highs. Is there a slight sense of hiss or grain? No, not really. It's just very much like being there. But different than DSD128 on the Ares, like the 1543 is a single malt islay and the Ares is Baileys. Not everybody likes islay because it's so peaty but it sure has balls and character. And I love it. So to my taste a resounding knock out in round 1 by the 4x1543!

Track 2; guitars and fast transients and deep space.
The DP5 performs well. A bit (over) sparkly on the guitars but staccato. Voice convincing. Deep space indeed. Very wide. Guitars attacking like mosquitos in the dark. Where is that coming from? Too late... It's a couple of guitars. 3? 4? 5? Where exactly? Still beautiful music and 'perfectly reproduced' if you wouldn't have heard...
The Ares. Now here's the blackness of space. There's a man singing in the middle. A guitar plucking with nails. All the way right, left, middle, mid right, more left, all together. it's a clear semi circle. This music is so good, minimalistic but emotive. The lyrics are gripping dangerous poetry. Again, this is forgetting. Forgetting...
The true minimalist. Is it a Shigiraki clone? No, but something like it. 4x1543. I'm a bit out of words here. So just whats different from the Ares. Why do I like this better? This is not dark space, not white space like in 'The Matrix' but it's dark space like you know there is light but it's not reflecting on anything and there are no lights. But when the guitars play you can almost see it. Still a game of 'spot the guitar' because they alternate so quickly. The singer is in the middle. No spotlight on him or the guitars like the DP5 9038 does but normal, dimmed slightly high color temperature (whitish) light. This is just why I like this music so much. Just as I remember it only now even better since when I played it (to often) on my system from 8y ago.

I know thise tracks are both small setting. I have not really sat down for comparative listening of complex music or electronic music. But from just listening to the Ares it didn't drop the ball anywhere. Wide symphony orchestra or Infected Mushroom, Rammstein, Zomby, organ music, Renaissance, Nina Simone, Miles, Jazz at the Pawnshop (although I missed some air there dsd vs vinyl).

So, I think it's a great dac but even I still severely underestimated my own little dac. I'm really not trying to pat myself on the back here but I was sincerely surprised (disappointed and elated at the same time). Now enjoying DP5 >4x1543 and tv>Ares.

 

[Honeypot]

Thanks for elaborating.
As usual i will need some time to digest all this. But sure i will. =D

 

[Rantenti]

The Topping D70s outputs XLR at 5V.
I have a pair of Neumann KH 80 DSP active speakers, with stated maximum input: +24 dBu for 94 dB SPL setting/ +18 dBu for 100 dB SPL setting/ +10 dBu for 108 dB SPL setting/ +4 dBu for 114 dB SPL setting
Can the speakers take the 5V XLR without clipping or damage? Thanks.