[viggen]

]eep interesting observation as I only use NOS dacs until Topping D90. So, it would be interesting had you included the D90 in your comparison. I am also familiar with the Sakamoto CD you're referring to. before D90, i couldn't stand shrillness in non-nonOS dacs especially sabre dacs. i couldn't stand the original ares never heard the v2.

 

[sajunky]

@viggen. As you do use NOS DAC already and you are familar with a sample CD, switching to D90 will be initially surprisingly positive, but after two hours you will stop playing. Yes, it sounds very clean, but emotions will fade quick, as it is all linked in our brain to a lack of timbre and texture. In result you will listen less to music or... return to R2R DAC, possibly in OS mode (as there is still enough emotions to keep our brain in the relaxed stage).

If you prefer NOS to OS, you will find that Redbook files sound better on your DAC in general and you don't need convert to DSD for the best results. Many D90 users prefer converting.

D90 has an advantage for computer generated music. It consists the most of current top 100 hits, it will satisfy most of young people.

 

[viggen]

sajunky i suggest you try a D90 before making assumptions.

 

[Honeypot]

And just to add a bit more spice to the sauce...

 

[klyrish]

sajunky i suggest you try a D90 before making assumptions.

Agreed. I had a D90 (non-MQA) since April 2020 and sold it within the last month. It was a wonderful DAC* and I was coming from a Metrum Onyx which I loved. I had numerous stacks and stack variants at the time:

Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Ether 2 (fully balanced)
Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Atticus (fully balanced)
Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Verite C (fully balanced)
Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Gilmore Lite Mk2 -> Ether 2
Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Gilmore Lite Mk2 -> Atticus
Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Gilmore Lite Mk2 -> Verite C
Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Stax SRM-35X -> Koss ESP/95X (fully balanced)
Onyx -> GS-X mini -> Jot R -> SR1a

* in certain settings

In the Koss and SR1a stacks, swapping the DAC had an immense, positive change. Music became fully 3D and holographic with incredible imaging and layering/separation and a surprisingly wide stage. Bass reached much deeper and had noticeably more detail than the Onyx. Treble was beautifully extended and so, so smooth. There was incredible synergy; music felt so energic and...alive with the D90. Going back to the Onyx was jarring: sound was completely 2D and flat. And keep in mind: before having the D90, I loved the stack and thought it was the best music had sounded--especially the ESP/95X. They sounded amazing through the Stax amp, preamped by the GS-X mini. But there was no denying it was leagues behind the D90 and I just didn't know any better. The stage was narrow and claustrophic. And worst of all, it was boring. It was shocking to me that this $700 DAC was embarrassing the ~$2500 Onyx so thoroughly.

But then I switched to the Ether 2, Atticus, and Verite C in their various incarnations listed above and for all of them, the D90 was terrible. There was no synergy whatsoever. For these headphones, in these stacks: the roles were reversed and the Onyx was the engaging, 3D, holographic and all-around well-presented DAC. I seriously wondered if I did something to the D90 somehow but switching back to the SR1a and Koss confirmed it was fine. With the D90 and these headphones, mids were muddy and lacking definition, timbre was way off, treble was harsh to the point of fatiguing in minutes and there was this awful glare that sort of made it feel like there was fabric over my ears, dampening the sound while still retaining harshness in the treble.

I guess my point is that the D90 can be an absolutely phenomenal DAC that outperforms DACs many times its price...in the right setting. It sucks there's not really any way of knowing if you have the right setting without trying it yourself firsthand in your stack.

 

[sajunky]

I guess my point is that the D90 can be an absolutely phenomenal DAC that outperforms DACs many times its price...in the right setting. It sucks there's not really any way of knowing if you have the right setting without trying it yourself firsthand in your stack.

I may agree to this point. It is worth to try, but I lost $130 on Topping D30 (it was a top measuring on ASR). Completely not satisfied, but I cannot return goods, there is no dealer in South Africa, so I will not try again. May be Topping should learn to not ship DAC's with fake opamps to the underdeveloped countries, or will include all neccessary protection in their current amps like A90/L30 (I mean ESD and DC protection), I will reconsider. So far there is a risk of damaging expensive cans (and hearing), not to mention finantial loses.

I understand your point, but limitation of a technology cannot be ignored. Many years ago I almost purchased Electrocompaniet DAC. It was an example where a DSP part was made right, revolutionary at the time. Then I found a new CD played based on the Burr-Brown PCM63 chip at the supermarket price. It did sound natural, while EC wasn't. PCM63 sound was very rough, I can't even compare it with high-end EC sound. However it gave me a hint. I decided to tune it up and results were phenomenal. I ordered external clock from a Dutch company and once again it carried a great improvement. I made an appointment for the auditon and brought it with me, the personel started to laugh looking at the frontplate, but they plugged it in. My DAC lost only to the other R2R DAC. There were already modern multistream Delta-Sigma chip implementations (similar to the Cirrus Logic chips in EC) that have improved sound a lot comparing to the plain bit-stream technology (which was a cheat), while R2R converters still had a vintage type of sound. Today discrete-ladder R2R DAC's have a modern clock synchronisation and DSP (typically in FPGA). You must try it.

 

[viggen]

..

I recall reading your post in the D90 thread.

D90 has more potential to uncover once you put the Singxer SU-2 in front of it. I was about to replace the D90 MQA with a Musician Pegasus. I got DDCs for both D90 and Pegasus to compare to make sure of which DAC to keep. W/O DDC, Pegasus sounded slightly better than D90. But, with DDC, it's no contest. With DDC, D90's attributes are much stronger and its short comings virtually disappeared. Although, some might say the sound is too clean. Things do get a bit boring when there's nothing to complain about. Of course, there is system synergy issue to much like your headphone scenarios.

BTW, I also came from a Metrum be it an Amethyst. I wish I didn't sell it so to use it as DAC/AMP since I use headphone more often at desk since WFM and baby sleeping at night. But, I am a 2 channel guy and D90 does have better synergy with my amp/speakers.

BTW, again, I had the E30 for a short time and find it to be a capable dac for $120 (price has since gone up). But, I wouldn't use it to evaluate D90. It's a different beast. D30 probably ranks below even the E30.

 

[]eep]

so many things running through my mind after reading. It's good share experiences, but it can get confusing really fast if you are all over the place and don't work methodically. You can't tell where some improvement comes from if you change several components before comparing.

Also, synergy is important, but you can't build a chain just on synergy. You can't reinforce a weak link with the strength of another or make weaknesses complement eachother. If certain component doesn't adhere to certain standards (like the A90 input impedance being way off) you limit yourself and cant use certain sources that could be much better quality, but cant handle the out of spec impedance. That's why I do not trust Topping very much.

So maybe we could talk more generally about AK4499 dac's in general. There are others that compete in the same price bracket. The Loxije comes to mind, or the almost identical M400.

Also, comparing the A90 to the Pegasus is... well... not a really good one. Let's call it personal preference, and I don't want to kindle up a flamewar again, but IMHO the Musician Pegasus is not a good implementation of R2R, a 'borrowed' design and what I gathered from the only comparative review that passed the wall of NDA's, sounds nowhere near as good as the original. I'm rather sure it would display even more of the overmodulation effect i described in my last comparison (due to the 'upgraded' output stage, rather the opposite of what i did to my TDA1543 which past my test with flying colors).

@viggen ; I can't compare what I don't have. So no D90. But i did ample research in comparing the SMSL M400 to the Denafrips Ares. Was i going to upgrade my Teradak 8x TDA1543 R2R or double ES9038-Q2m dac. I am not a reviewer that gets sent free samples, nor am I financially very 'liquid'. So I stuck to my horses and acted on reason. Also I know i can modify the output of the Ares (and know how to), not so with AK4499. I can change opamps, make a tubestage or w/e but basically it's a complicated gain stage.

@sajunky : you were referring to a tentlabs clock I presume? I need to get back to dacs after I've built all the speakers and turntables I had in mind. Just finished my 2nd pair of speakers, still tweaking the filter. I need to make the filter to be compliant with any amp, not just my preference. It needs to be balanced on it's own, not just fit in my system in the workshop. I want to be able to drive it off my puny 2.5W tubeamp. (2x 3" fullrange, dipole, closed system with AMT supertweeter). If i get back to dac its going to be 1543 with i2s in, given last test.

 

[Honeypot]

Hello and thanks everyone for contributing to the topic. If I didn't post it's because I didn't feel like I could share anything relevant. Tbh, i am learning a lot by just reading you guys, so i wanted to thank and encourage you all to keep this going.
My fa-12 came yesterday and I am still thinking which dac is the one to go.
So this thread is very helpful.

I wish I could try a r2r dac. I don't have anywhere to test this type of equipment and i too buy based on reviews.

Currently have the ares II as my go to, but I didn't purchase it yet. I want to understand better my new amp before going for a new dac..

Thats it guys.

 

[sajunky]

Currently have the ares II as my go to, but I didn't purchase it yet. I want to understand better my new amp before going for a new dac..

Give Ares a chance. At least one week trying different type of music. Not compare, but listen... Note a time when you stop listening, it should increase every time. FA12 will help a lot

BTW, these tweaks are not important. More important is adjusting our brain to the natural sound especially now when we don't attend public concerts anymore, it doesn't come immediately.

 

[sajunky]

@sajunky : you were referring to a tentlabs clock I presume? I need to get back to dacs after I've built all the speakers and turntables I had in mind.

Sorry, it was around 2000, my memory do not serve well. It was a Danish company (not Dutch) named LC Audio, the whole things did cost more than CD player alone. They still do the same things, I had in my house for few days their first class D amp, a DIY project of a friend. Find also a proper class A buffer for DAC chips called ZAPfilter: https://www.lcaudio.com/index.php?page=4

 

[Honeypot]

Tbh the one thing that scares me about r2r dacs it's what I hear to be a relaxed type of highs fr.
I do consider my lcdx already on the dark side. The fa-12 does slightly tame highs as well. I wouldn't like this to be pronounced any more.
Is it even coherent what my doubt?

 

[sajunky]

Tbh the one thing that scares me about r2r dacs it's what I hear to be a relaxed type of highs fr.
I do consider my lcdx already on the dark side. The fa-12 does slightly tame highs as well. I wouldn't like this to be pronounced any more.
Is it even coherent what my doubt?

Relaxed, yes, but in a different sense. Not tamed at all, but free of a digital flare, harshness. It make listening relaxed, not fatiguing. Remember what @jeep wrote: "You can't reinforce a weak link with the strength of another or make weaknesses complement each other." I fully agree, it is a prime example, a weakness can be perceived wrong. Find a natural source, by example a turntable and test FA-12 on a good recording, you might come to a different conclusion.

I didn't hear Flux, but it is Class A amplifier after all, not similar to the nested loopback mass market offerings which is also missing natural presentation in treble. Give it a chance with a source that has a natural treble, it should give a different impression.

//Edited a moment before a reply, fixing only mistakes, not essential changes//

 

[Honeypot]

Relaxed, yes, but in a different sense. Not tamed at all, but free of a digital flare, harshness. It make listening relaxed, not fatiguing. Remember what @jeep wrote: "You can't reinforce a weak link with the strength of another or make weaknesses complement each other." I fully agree, a weakness can be perceived wrong. Find a natural source, by example a turntable and test FA-12 on good recording, you might come to a different conclusion.

I didn't hear Flux, but it is Class A amplifier after all, not similar to the nested loopback mass market design that is also missing natural in natural presentation in treble. Give it a chance with a source that has a natural treble, it should give a different impression.

Will try.
I didn't consider much this digital flare, but I am old enough to remember the sound of analog. And indeed music have become more sparkly (i don't know how to put it), perhaps it became this way coz the technical capabilities of hardware also went up.
What I'm trying to say is that i think I get you with the digital flare. But I also learnt to love the new sound. The fast and flared music products, and productions.
With all this nonsense i go sleep.

Thanks again =D

 

[]eep]

Hello and thanks everyone for contributing to the topic. If I didn't post it's because I didn't feel like I could share anything relevant. Tbh, i am learning a lot by just reading you guys, so i wanted to thank and encourage you all to keep this going.
My fa-12 came yesterday and I am still thinking which dac is the one to go.
So this thread is very helpful.

I wish I could try a r2r dac. I don't have anywhere to test this type of equipment and i too buy based on reviews.

Currently have the ares II as my go to, but I didn't purchase it yet. I want to understand better my new amp before going for a new dac..

Thats it guys.

It is a sound plan to get used to your new amp first. Improvements should be done incremental. Not just for knowi g what does what but also for better appreciating what you have. (nice amp btw) Just take your time and enjoy.

It is true that dacs have improved a lot, but the artificial detail is not part of that. If you increase the source samplefrequency (not bitdepth) you get more real detail (if it's in the recording in the first place), ànd... you make it easier on the filtering of (after) the dac because you can use less agressive slopes. The thing is though, delta sigma create a lot of HF noise that has to be filtered. What I did, no filter at all on NOS R2R, is not possible (or advisable ) on DS.

I remember listening at my dealer to the first bitstream dac (on my request). It had a lot of detail. But not much else. Neither were there any other cd-players that sounded remotely like my Linn turntable btw. Those old R2R's suffered from bad filtering, oversampling, just overall no good implementation. Oversampling has the effect shown in this picture. And DS does this a lot. Just from the scope you can see there's more 'there' there, as they say. Only it's not real. That's why i said 'artificial detail'.

With a good R2R dac you do not lose detail, you don't lose any information. You just don't get any extra swings before the real transient masquerading as 'detail'. This is closer to natural sound, less confusing to our brain and therefore less fatiguing.