[Zenvota]

Subwoofers into the Oyaide, but for now they are to wall outlets

The subwoofers are electrically connected, so you would want them on the same strip as the adac an amps as well, or use these to isolate them and dont plug them into the dac/amp strip, they come in 1 channel rca 2 channel, xlr, etc. https://www.parts-express.com/jense...MI7cHssLP94AIVjIbACh0xfQApEAQYBCABEgIQz_D_BwE

Speaker Class D amps
Line 2: Power Amp

What's the power amp driving?

Just to be clear, are you saying the filtering from the Topaz, in line withe the P12, is increasing the impedance?

The P12 has individual filtering per outlet, that's what increases impedance, however, the p12s information says low output impedance.

Are you saying that the ideal might be using one of my dedicated lines for "electrically connected" components and one for everything else?
And which components are electrically connected (through capacitors)? You say not the Dac because it is connected by ethernet, but it is
connected to Power Amp through interconnects, so... I obviously am lost here.

Yes one line with the topaz for everything electrically connected. And electrically connected would be via the interconnects, the dac and all the amplifiers. There's no electrical connection between the server and the dac.

Dedicated Line 1: Topaz/Oyaide Strip > Digital Components (Dac, Ethernet Switch, Nucleus Server). I think I read somewhere that the Topaz is suited to attenuating
common mode, high frequency noise from digital devices. Do I have that right?

Dedicated Line 2: P12 for Power Amp , Class D sub amps and speaker amps

Is the above ass-backward because it's not the right grouping of components vis a vis electrically connected components?

Close, you want the Topaz, dac, and amps together. You could even use a second smaller topaz for the server and/or switch.

The topaz reduces common mode noise by 140db and traverse mode noise by 70db, it affects all components, and is typically reduced well by balanced drive, but not as much as the good isolation transformers.

Digital components generate inductance across their power cables due to the variance in power draw, this is alleviated by quadrapole(star quad) power cabling which has a very low inductance.

So...

Line 1: second topaz with switch and server

Line 2: topaz>p12> dac and speaker
amps

jensen isomax in front of each subwoofer input

 

[One and a half]

Responses in Bold Below

"You have two dedicated lines correct? and you also have sub amps... Mind giving me a complete chain? breaker to transducer"

I have a total 3 Dedicated lines, but only using 2 at present

Current set up:

Line 1: Topaz > P12 > (Cisco ethernet Switch, Nucleus Server w/ linear ps, Lampizator Dac w/ ethernet streamer) > Oyaide Strip > (Speaker Class D amps). I may also try
Subwoofers into the Oyaide, but for now they are to wall outlets

(Interestingly, with this particular set up the Topaz is not attenuating the EMI noise as much as normal. Now, about 20% from 250 to 200. Before it would reduce by 50%)

Line 2: Power Amp


"The reasoning is just due to the filtering of each outlet of the p12 increases impedance between electrically connected devices(which have leakage currents) and the higher impedance raises noise generated by the leakage currents."

Just to be clear, are you saying the filtering from the Topaz, in line withe the P12, is increasing the impedance?

"I think in the case of the P12, using it after the Topaz and plugging everything electrically connected into the p12 is fine."
"everything after and including the dac should be plugged into either the p12 or the oyaide power strip"
"The dac is connected via ethernet which doesnt have an electeical connection so no leakage is generated and they dont need to be plugged into the same power strip."

Forgive my Neanderthal understanding of electricity, but I'm trying to understand the above lines.
Are you saying that the ideal might be using one of my dedicated lines for "electrically connected" components and one for everything else?
And which components are electrically connected (through capacitors)? You say not the Dac because it is connected by ethernet, but it is
connected to Power Amp through interconnects, so... I obviously am lost here.

Given that my Power amp and Topaz create hum, and it's not practical to build an outdoor, climate controlled Topaz Doghouse, what do you think of the following scenarios?:

1. Topaz and P12 on Separate Lines

Dedicated Line 1: Topaz/Oyaide Strip > Digital Components (Dac, Ethernet Switch, Nucleus Server). I think I read somewhere that the Topaz is suited to attenuating
common mode, high frequency noise from digital devices. Do I have that right?

Dedicated Line 2: P12 for Power Amp , Class D sub amps and speaker amps

Is the above ass-backward because it's not the right grouping of components vis a vis electrically connected components?

2. Topaz and P12 Inline

Ded Line 1 > Topaz > P12 > (Digital components).
Ded Line 2 > Oyaide strip > (all Amps)

This would utilize noise attenuation of the Topaz for Digital
and also reduce the EMI noise from the P12

3. P12 (Topaz eliminated)

Ded Line 1 > P12 > (all digital and all amps). I would need to use the Oyaide strip as well coming from the P12 as there is not room for all the thick
cables into the P12. Might there be any issues from using the Oyaide strip and P12 together like this? I guess the advantage of this options would
be a star ground? But at the cost of losing the utility of the Topaz.

Thanks for you time and advice. Hopefully this might be helpful to others

"Amp" refers to my SET Power Amp. I don't have a preamp, as I use the Vol control on the Lampizator Dac.

The only problem for me in your scenario above is that the Power Amp (Set tube, 8 watts/channel) increases the Topaz hum too much when connected direct to the Topaz/Oyaide strip.
I would have to build a weatherproof outdoor closet to house the Topaz.

So, you are recommending to separate the Topaz and P12 in their own dedicated lines?
Can you explain a little about the reasoning behind not using the Topaz and P12 in line?

With the idea of using the Topaz to attenuate my line noise I just hooked up the Topaz and P12 in line and see that the Topaz before the P12 does indeed greatly lower the
EMI noise from the P12. But, I don't know how important this EMI noise out of the P12 is to Audio quality...

To follow your suggestion of using 2 dedicated lines, what do you think of:

Dedicated Line 1: Topaz > Oyaide strip > Dac, Ethernet Switch, Class D speaker amps

Dedicated Line 2: P12 > Server > Power Amp > Class D Sub Amps

Why do you separate the Server from the other Sources (Dac and Switch)?

Thanks!

Interested- why have you decided to float the output of the Topaz. Unless you build in earth fault or differential protection, the best is either ground the centre tap or the X4 on the output. There’s then a reference setup and in the case of the tube amp the reactive noise should reduce, provided the Topaz is large enough, safe bet 2x the watts of the set plus all the other watts / 0.6 in VA.

The Topaz is best installed on the output of the p12 and the Oyaide use to plug in everything else after the Topaz.

 

[Willco]

I'm glad you asked about the grounding, because I see now it is grounded. It's the p12 which is ungrounded. When I checked the Topaz it was down current from the P12, and I mistakenly assumed it was the Topaz, not the P12 with the floating ground.

I don't recall seeing anywhere that the PsAudio Power Plants were designed to have floating grounds. I'll ask them about that. Does this make sense that the Power Plants would have floating grounds?

So, unfortunately, grounding the Topaz (which is in fact grounded) won't be a strategy for reducing the hum brought on by the amp. The Topaz is 2.4 KVA so it should have plenty of power, so it must be a specific interaction with the tube amp (and a previous tube amp brought on the same hum). So I don't know if there's any solution to the hum other that banishing it to an exterior climate controlled Topaz Doghouse. I'm also concerned it will overheat the Topaz as it runs pretty hot with just just sources connected...

"The Topaz is best installed on the output of the p12 and the Oyaide use to plug in everything else after the Topaz."

That's what I've been doing before my recent experimentations, but with the Power Amp either connected to the P12 or direct from a dedicated line.
I don't have any idea which of those options is theoretically better...

I thought I might remove the Topaz and try the P12 with everything, sources and amps connected through a combinations of the P12 outlets and Oyaide strip.

Trail and error...

 

[Willco]

The subwoofers are electrically connected, so you would want them on the same strip as the adac an amps as well, or use these to isolate them and dont plug them into the dac/amp strip, they come in 1 channel rca 2 channel, xlr, etc. https://www.parts-express.com/jense...MI7cHssLP94AIVjIbACh0xfQApEAQYBCABEgIQz_D_BwE


What's the power amp driving?


The P12 has individual filtering per outlet, that's what increases impedance, however, the p12s information says low output impedance.


Yes one line with the topaz for everything electrically connected. And electrically connected would be via the interconnects, the dac and all the amplifiers. There's no electrical connection between the server and the dac.


Close, you want the Topaz, dac, and amps together. You could even use a second smaller topaz for the server and/or switch.

The topaz reduces common mode noise by 140db and traverse mode noise by 70db, it affects all components, and is typically reduced well by balanced drive, but not as much as the good isolation transformers.

Digital components generate inductance across their power cables due to the variance in power draw, this is alleviated by quadrapole(star quad) power cabling which has a very low inductance.

So...

Line 1: second topaz with switch and server

Line 2: topaz>p12> dac and speaker
amps

jensen isomax in front of each subwoofer input

In the above plan, would you run the Power Amp from the 3rd dedicated line? Thanks

 

[Willco]

Interested- why have you decided to float the output of the Topaz. Unless you build in earth fault or differential protection, the best is either ground the centre tap or the X4 on the output. There’s then a reference setup and in the case of the tube amp the reactive noise should reduce, provided the Topaz is large enough, safe bet 2x the watts of the set plus all the other watts / 0.6 in VA.

The Topaz is best installed on the output of the p12 and the Oyaide use to plug in everything else after the Topaz.

I did confirm that the P12 has a floating ground. So if the Topaz is down current, it is ungrounded as well. How would the plan change in this case? Thanks

 

[Zenvota]

nterested- why have you decided to float the output of the Topaz. Unless you build in earth fault or differential protection, the best is either ground the centre tap or the X4 on the output

This was just being discussed in the CA thread wasnt it? I thought I remembered John and Alex saying not to ground the neutral output. I also have a prewired 91092-12 that was new, and that doesnt have the neutral output connected to ground either which is why I wired my 91092-31 like this

But that other discussion and here youre saying x4 and ground should be jumpered as well?

 

[Willco]

I my case, does running the Topaz in line after the ps Audio P12 Regenerator (which is not grounded) if effect make the Topaz ungrounded?

 

[Zenvota]

In the above plan, would you run the Power Amp from the 3rd dedicated line? Thanks

Nope everything connected to the dac via interconnects should be on the topaz.

I my case, does running the Topaz in line after the ps Audio P12 Regenerator (which is not grounded) if effect make the Topaz ungrounded?

yes

 

[One and a half]

This was just being discussed in the CA thread wasnt it? I thought I remembered John and Alex saying not to ground the neutral output. I also have a prewired 91092-12 that was new, and that doesnt have the neutral output connected to ground either which is why I wired my 91092-31 like this

But that other discussion and here youre saying x4 and ground should be jumpered as well?

Well, here’s the gist of things.
There are rules and regulations for the NEC, AS which need to be followed. The point of an isolation transformer is mainly for use on grounded scopes measuring floating voltages under test purposes so the scope doesn’t blow up.
For general appliances and this includes everything else like audio equipment, there are no exemptions when connected through an isolation transformer, the output secondary must be grounded at either the centre point or one end, classically the X4 terminal.

The reason also is that EMC filters need to find a way back to the source, plus grounding the output severely knocks common mode noise. More, if the impedance between the neutral on X4 and ground is close to zero, which a short bridge will do avoids the neutral to ground voltages from rising and that has an impact on computing gear, digital equipment and so on.

I rather pay attention to regulations and engineering practice which work and are safe.

 

[Zenvota]

the output secondary must be grounded at either the centre point or one end, classically the X4 terminal

Thank you for the explanation, so based off these posts https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...sformers/page/12/?tab=comments#comment-599055 and your suggestions, if grounding the secondary neutral, its best to use a gfci on the outlet as well, correct?

 

[Willco]

"......everything connected to the dac via interconnects should be on the topaz."


Interestingly, I tried the Power Amp into the Topaz/Oyaide strip, again. This time, only a slight increase in the transformer hum.

Dedicated Line > P12 regenerator (ethernet Switch and Server) > Topaz/Strip (Dac, Power Amp, class d Speaker amps).

Right now, the P12 is at 36% capacity.
Only the subs are still into the wall, and I may try them into the strip as well.

And, also very curious, the Topaz is running much cooler now-- it used to be fairly hot to the touch. And this is the same set up I've
used before, just not with Power Amp connected to the Topaz.

 

[Zenvota]

"......everything connected to the dac via interconnects should be on the topaz."


Interestingly, I tried the Power Amp into the Topaz/Oyaide strip, again. This time, only a slight increase in the transformer hum.

Dedicated Line > P12 regenerator (ethernet Switch and Server) > Topaz/Strip (Dac, Power Amp, class d Speaker amps).

Right now, the P12 is at 36% capacity.
Only the subs are still into the wall, and I may try them into the strip as well.

And, also very curious, the Topaz is running much cooler now-- it used to be fairly hot to the touch. And this is the same set up I've
used before, just not with Power Amp connected to the Topaz.

That sounds great! I'm fairly certain you can use those Jensen IsoMax transformers to isolate the subwoofer amps from the rest of the chain and leave them plugged in where they are, that type of isolation does block leakage currents. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I use them to isolate my bass shaker system from my dac and headamp via an XLR split. That's only for gaming though for the low latency, for music and movies I use voicemeter to split the signal to a different dac for the shakers and use the ACSS connection between my dac and headamp.

 

[One and a half]

Thank you for the explanation, so based off these posts https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/...sformers/page/12/?tab=comments#comment-599055 and your suggestions, if grounding the secondary neutral, its best to use a gfci on the outlet as well, correct?

In the case X4 is bonded to ground, a GFCI on the feeder side can pick up the fault.

 

[Willco]

That sounds great! I'm fairly certain you can use those Jensen IsoMax transformers to isolate the subwoofer amps from the rest of the chain and leave them plugged in where they are, that type of isolation does block leakage currents. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I use them to isolate my bass shaker system from my dac and headamp via an XLR split. That's only for gaming though for the low latency, for music and movies I use voicemeter to split the signal to a different dac for the shakers and use the ACSS connection between my dac and headamp.

The weird thing is, now that the Topaz tolerates the power amp without a big increase in hum, there is now much more measured noise coming out of the Topaz. For instance: (as measured with Alpha Labs EMI meter: Wall: 250 mV > P12: 500 mV > Topaz : 700 mV. Until I measured just now, the Topaz has always been around 90 - 120 mV. The only variable could be the power amp being connected, instead of running out of the wall or P12.

 

[bequietjk]

I recently bought the 91095-32 'MGE' branded iso transformer off of eBay and am very excited to see how this does added into my system. Looking for better noise floor of course.

Is there anything I should look out for, re-wire or diagnose before connecting it to my APC voltage regulator and then connecting my dac and amp? I'm not very knowledgeable in the electronics field save a few soldering jobs making power cables.

My main concern is from this video
Where the gentleman goes to say that the unit may be wired improperly for normal use. I just don't want to blow anything up any equipment including myself trying to reach the pinnacle of audio.

Any tips?

Thanks!