To crossfeed or not to crossfeed? That is the question...

[castleofargh]

My good man, with the utmost respect and the kindest of intentions, would you not like to discuss something else? You have been extremely hyper-focused on this particular subject and it's associated never-ending argument across a number of threads for way too long. It's not healthy mate. Your passion is commendable but it can have a real bad side to it as well if you let it take control (I was quite guilty of this too in my younger years so I am speaking from experience). If I may, have you considered participating in another thread... or better yet start a new thread about a completely different topic that interests you. Let others interact with you in a completely different situation on a completely different subject and you may be surprised what happens! It might cheer you up!

BTW: I don't think you are a loser. Losers tend to not have the passion, intelligence, nor the fortitude to argue a losing point-of-view for as long as you have! I am not saying you are wrong or right but rather trying to say that you been in a long-term battle and greatly out numbered. We are always are own worst critics and way to hard on ourselves. Don't take yourself or life too seriously... it is one big practical joke, a comedic tragedy, and then we die! LOL! Cheers.

I noticed early on that @71 dB was massively invested in crossfeed, but I couldn't understand why he gave any F about what greg, biggie and others believed. And I think I got it now. I think he likes those guys and that's why it hurts so much.

The discussion format also doesn't help. This all affair would surely be a nothing burger if we all were face to face in a pub having a good time.

 

[bigshot]

I agree. I don't think this is about crossfeed. This is about being accepted as a peer. That should be a given among the regulars at sound science. It isn't something we have to prove to each other. He's taking disagreement as rejection. No one should argue for status. This is just an Internet forum for goodness sakes, not a University. The idea is to visit and learn from each other, not impress each other with our knowledge and expertise. I know I don't care if people think ill of me. (That should be blatantly obvious!)

 

[Steve999]

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.
— Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Self-Reliance", Essays: First Series, 1841

 

[Steve999]

@71 dB , at my own great peril, I do say, unequivocally, that I enjoy your crossfeed posts, and I find them to be thoughtful and intelligent.

 

[71 dB]

I noticed early on that @71 dB was massively invested in crossfeed, but I couldn't understand why he gave any F about what greg, biggie and others believed. And I think I got it now. I think he likes those guys and that's why it hurts so much.

You are not wrong. I believe Gregorio and Bigshot both have massive knowledge on audio issues and in many things I look up to them, but I also think even they aren't all-knowing Gods and someone like me may bring out areas where their opinions aren't as correct as they think.

He's taking disagreement as rejection.

Yes, because you don't express disagreement by saying you disagree. You express it by saying I am wrong. You can't think the possibility that it is actually you who is wrong. According to you I can be wrong because the way I hear things misleads me, but you don't realize that would apply to you too! Maybe the way you hear has misled you? I am constantly "fact-checking" myself and that makes me unsure of myself (am I right or wrong?), but I can't adopt a new dogma, your dogma just because you say I am wrong. I need to be convinced! Telling me I am wrong is not convincing. I need something much more intellectual. Logic, math and yes, it would help if I heard things the same way other people do.

@71 dB , at my own great peril, I do say, unequivocally, that I enjoy your crossfeed posts, and I find them to be thoughtful and intelligent.

Thanks! Nice to hear that! You made my day Steve! It is easy to forget that people who agree with me don't reply to my posts as much as those who disagree.

 

[bigshot]

I'm not wrong on this one. I know the areas I don't know and I avoid talking about them. Just about everyone in the forum has pointed out you're not correct on this one. It isn't just me you're ignoring.

 

[jamesjames]

You are not wrong. I believe Gregorio and Bigshot both have massive knowledge on audio issues and in many things I look up to them, but I also think even they aren't all-knowing Gods and someone like me may bring out areas where their opinions aren't as correct as they think.


Yes, because you don't express disagreement by saying you disagree. You express it by saying I am wrong. You can't think the possibility that it is actually you who is wrong. According to you I can be wrong because the way I hear things misleads me, but you don't realize that would apply to you too! Maybe the way you hear has misled you? I am constantly "fact-checking" myself and that makes me unsure of myself (am I right or wrong?), but I can't adopt a new dogma, your dogma just because you say I am wrong. I need to be convinced! Telling me I am wrong is not convincing. I need something much more intellectual. Logic, math and yes, it would help if I heard things the same way other people do.


Thanks! Nice to hear that! You made my day Steve! It is easy to forget that people who agree with me don't reply to my posts as much as those who disagree.

I agree with Steve999.

 

[71 dB]

I'm not wrong on this one. I know the areas I don't know and I avoid talking about them. Just about everyone in the forum has pointed out you're not correct on this one. It isn't just me you're ignoring.

Not everyone has "pointed out I am wrong". Only some of you thinking you know better than I do. I am not someone who tested crossfeed for 5 minutes yesterday for the first time and now claim expertise of it. I have used crossfeed for 10 years*. I have academic background. I have thought about these issues for years. I have written Nyquist plugins to test things. Why would I write this much about crossfeed if it wasn't "my thing"?

* it means I have listened to crossfed material on headphones thousands of hours. How about you? How can you be an expert on crossfeed when you hardly even use headphones! You are an expert of speaker sound!

 

[bigshot]

You really are incapable of letting this go. I think you need time away from Sound Science. Your participation here is welcomed by me, but grabbing on this hard can't be good for you.

 

[jamesjames]

You really are incapable of letting this go. I think you need time away from Sound Science. Your participation here is welcomed by me, but grabbing on this hard can't be good for you.

I enjoy crossfeed. I think it makes music sound more natural. Is my participation here welcomed by you?

 

[bigshot]

Enjoying crossfeed is fine. I have absolutely no problem with people liking crossfeed, bass boosts, high end roll off or euphonic distortion. If you like it, great. Enjoy it in good health.

My only objection is saying that crossfeed increases spatiality, because that isn’t what crossfeed does. Crossfeed reduces channel separation. Doing that can make headphone listeners find music more pleasant. But it doesn’t create an “outside the head experience” and it doesn’t contribute distance cues to the sound, making the music seem to be at a distance from the listener. It is nothing like binaural recording. And it isn’t spatial like speakers in a room.

Blending channels is cool. I’d like it myself with early stereo Beatles records. But blending channels doesn’t create spatiality. There are other ways to do that, which I’ve already outlined, so I won’t repeat myself.

 

[jamesjames]

Enjoying crossfeed is fine. I have absolutely no problem with people liking crossfeed, bass boosts, high end roll off or euphonic distortion. If you like it, great. Enjoy it in good health.

My only objection is saying that crossfeed increases spatiality, because that isn’t what crossfeed does. Crossfeed reduces channel separation. Doing that can make headphone listeners find music more pleasant. But it doesn’t create an “outside the head experience” and it doesn’t contribute distance cues to the sound, making the music seem to be at a distance from the listener. It is nothing like binaural recording. And it isn’t spatial like speakers in a room.

Blending channels is cool. I’d like it myself with early stereo Beatles records. But blending channels doesn’t create spatiality. There are other ways to do that, which I’ve already outlined, so I won’t repeat myself.

It does, in fact, create an 'outside the head experience' for me. So I guess we fundamentally disagree. However, I accept you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[71 dB]

You really are incapable of letting this go. I think you need time away from Sound Science. Your participation here is welcomed by me, but grabbing on this hard can't be good for you.

A few posts ago you wrote you are done here. Accusing me of not letting go is ironic in that context. If you wish me to post less here then don't attack me the way you do forcing me to reply.

 

[71 dB]

My only objection is saying that crossfeed increases spatiality, because that isn’t what crossfeed does. Crossfeed reduces channel separation. Doing that can make headphone listeners find music more pleasant. But it doesn’t create an “outside the head experience” and it doesn’t contribute distance cues to the sound, making the music seem to be at a distance from the listener. It is nothing like binaural recording. And it isn’t spatial like speakers in a room.

The problem here is you don't even try to figure out what I mean when I say those things. You interpret it in a way that allows you to attack me the most.

Increased spatiality in this context means the secondary spatial cues in the recording (there is no primary cues with headphones) are scaled into more natural form so that spatial hearing can make better sense of them. For some people this makes the music more enjoyable, decreases listening fatique and allows “outside the head experience” depending on the quality of the secondary spatial cues in the recording. It doesn't mean binaural sound or speakers in a room. Crossfeed doesn't create new distance cues. It allows better interpretation of the distance cues in the recording. Without crossfeed we "bypass" the important process of scaling channel separation into natural levels and this makes the secondary spatial cues in the recording hard to interpret. Scaling channel separation into natural levels is important for us who get annoyed by unnatural levels, because the practise of mixing music for speakers creates unnatural levels of channel separation (because acoustic crossfeed scales it back to natural). With speakers there are no problems. The music is mixed and listened to with acoustic crossfeed, but with headphones we suddenly drop acoustic crossfeed and our ears are bombed with unnatural levels of channel separation. Some people don't mind it, some do. I am one of those who do mind.

 

[bigshot]

It does, in fact, create an 'outside the head experience' for me.

How much distance do you perceive? Five feet? Ten feet? Does it pop in and out as you dial the crossfeed up and down? Or is the effect consistent regardless of how much crossfeed you dial in? Could the crossfeed DSP you're using have some sort of time delay built into it?