Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

[DreamKing]

Okay, considering obvious subjectivity when asking a question like this: Is there substantial increase in performance in all these different thetas? Going by http://www.thetadigital.com/legacy_products.shtml, there seems to be a lot of difference between them but it doesn't seem like it from the way people lump them all together here. But I'm probably mistaken (?). 

 

[estreeter]

  Thetas aren't in production anymore, you can't guarantee a unit will be easily obtainable when your unit breaks. But for the sake of argument let's say there is one on the auction site when yours goes kaput... The hassle of waiting 7-days for the auction to end, going through a bidding war without an guarantee that I will win it, and the time without a DAC while I'm waiting for said replacement to arrive is worth $1300 to me.

 
The ebay sniping experts will tell you how you can be guaranteed of winning anything you really want, but I would be fascinated to see this stockpile of ~$350 Thetas @Stillhart seems to believe are still out there looking for owners. God knows how many vintage R2R DACs have mysteriously appreciated in value since this thread went down that path. 

 

[EraserXIV]

I've had many friends go down similar paths for automobiles, electronics, TVs, etc.. And ended up spending more money than had they just gone the safer route. The adage "You get what you pay for" is an adage for a reason. Just my 2 cents and the last I'll say on this.

 

[Stillhart]

   
The ebay sniping experts will tell you how you can be guaranteed of winning anything you really want, but I would be fascinated to see this stockpile of ~$350 Thetas @Stillhart seems to believe are still out there looking for owners. God knows how many vintage R2R DACs have mysteriously appreciated in value since this thread went down that path. 

 
One only needs to do a search for closed listings to get that information.  And really, the exact price seems to be a bit academic.  Even if it's $700 or $1400, it's still significantly cheaper than the Theta, etc etc.
 
Anyways, clearly my voice of reason is being taken the wrong way so I'll let this conversation go for now.  Maybe in a week or two, the hype will die down and we can have a real discussion on the relative value of the Yggy.

 

[freddy1201]

   
My issue is with those who are advising people that they should "just save up" for a Yggy no matter what budget we're talking about.  
 
By all means, spend your own money however you like.  But when advising others on how to spend their money, I take a more conservative stance.
 

Sure, i think it's not the end of all dac, because you need to start the hobby somewhere. 

 

 

[hans030390]

 
Honestly i was impressed by the cheap tda1543 multibit at the point that i wonder how the best multibit can sound

 
I think TDA1543 can be fun sounding with good tone, but in terms of objectively good, accurate, or technically competent multibit chips, it's pretty far down there on the list.
 
Just think a lot better of everything it does and you'll start to have an idea when it comes to better multibit.

 

[wahsmoh]

Vintage R2R's still remain a high value proposition. I payed $500 for my Bifrost Uber Gen 2 USB with all bells and whistles. The $276 eBay Theta DAC spanks the Uber and it is also a single-ended only DAC. Hell it is probably the best single-ended DAC you can buy for what it goes for used. I know the more I talk the more the Theta appreciates in value so I should shut my trap so other people can get a taste of it. I also got free shipping 

 

[Sonic Defender]

   
My issue is with those who are advising people that they should "just save up" for a Yggy no matter what budget we're talking about.  
 
By all means, spend your own money however you like.  But when advising others on how to spend their money, I take a more conservative stance.
 

I hear you brother, but that is still a valid suggestion. Those who want to and can will save and wait (god knows I couldn't, I'm far too impulsive) and those who can't or don't want to won't. Heck I think the idea of counseling people to engage in delayed gratification is actually a good one. Along the way they will either really appreciate what they saved for, or they'll realize just how much money they are putting out there and maybe decide to do something else with the money?

 

[hodgjy]

  Vintage R2R's still remain a high value proposition. I payed $500 for my Bifrost Uber Gen 2 USB with all bells and whistles. The $276 eBay Theta DAC spanks the Uber and it is also a single-ended only DAC. Hell it is probably the best single-ended DAC you can buy for what it goes for used. I know the more I talk the more the Theta appreciates in value so I should shut my trap so other people can get a taste of it. I also got free shipping 

How do you describe the difference? I currently have a Bifrost Uber and am looking to upgrade.

 

[theblueprint]

  How do you describe the difference? I currently have a Bifrost Uber and am looking to upgrade.

 
Also curious about this too. I just got a bifrost uber (which will hopefully keep me happy for a couple years at least) and am aware that a substantial upgrade will have me spending well over the 1000s. I'm predicting my next DAC will be an yggy, unless I score a Theta for cheap (though what's keeping me from biting the Theta bait is that I need a usb to SPDIF converter, which will run me another hundred at least). 

 

[wahsmoh]

  How do you describe the difference? I currently have a Bifrost Uber and am looking to upgrade.

The Bifrost Uber sounds more left channel/right channel where the soundstage is more compressed and center image isn't as focused.
 
I can hear details and instrument separation better with the Theta. This major difference is the presentation of details.
The Uber doesn't have any less detail than the Theta, it is the way it is presented that makes it sound artificial in some ways.
 
It is also less extended in the lows and the Theta doesn't require as much volume/frequency imbalance to get superior bass speed and control over the Uber.
 
The Uber can get more bass than the Theta but at the expense of the higher frequency glare. I can listen to my Theta at much higher volumes than Uber for this reason, it is way less fatiguing. The Uber is still convincing when you hit the "sweet spot" on the volume dial, but the soundstage and center image suffers in comparison to what the Theta brings.
 
I also get better low level macrodynamics I can hear with vocals and backing vocals coming through more separated and clearly.
 
The DSP is the difference.. burrito filter vs. AKM4399 non-burrito filter. The analog section of the Uber is still a well done section, but it doesn't have the staging aspects of what the DSP brings to the table.

 

[hodgjy]

  The Bifrost Uber sounds more left channel/right channel where the soundstage is more compressed and center image isn't as focused.
 
I can hear details and instrument separation better with the Theta. This major difference is the presentation of details.
The Uber doesn't have any less detail than the Theta, it is the way it is presented that makes it sound artificial in some ways.
 
It is also less extended in the lows and the Theta doesn't require as much volume/frequency imbalance to get superior bass speed and control over the Uber.
 
The Uber can get more bass than the Theta but at the expense of the higher frequency glare. I can listen to my Theta at much higher volumes than Uber for this reason, it is way less fatiguing. The Uber is still convincing when you hit the "sweet spot" on the volume dial, but the soundstage and center image suffers in comparison to what the Theta brings.
 
I also get better low level macrodynamics I can hear with vocals and backing vocals coming through more separated and clearly.
 
The DSP is the difference.. burrito filter vs. AKM4399 non-burrito filter. The analog section of the Uber is still a well done section, but it doesn't have the staging aspects of what the DSP brings to the table.

Thanks for your impressions. Are you listening via speakers or headphones?

 

[wahsmoh]

  Thanks for your impressions. Are you listening via speakers or headphones?

headphone listening. I heard the same thing though with my cheap m-audio monitors. Even my non-audiophile friend commented how the sound was very 3D like

 

[hodgjy]

  headphone listening. I heard the same thing though with my cheap m-audio monitors. Even my non-audiophile friend commented how the sound was very 3D like

Thanks again. Sigh, as I'm still with my Bifrost and could go for something better. Yggy is still too far outside my price range, though. Gungnir is more within it.

 

[skeptic]

   
One only needs to do a search for closed listings to get that information.  And really, the exact price seems to be a bit academic.  Even if it's $700 or $1400, it's still significantly cheaper than the Theta, etc etc.
 
Anyways, clearly my voice of reason is being taken the wrong way so I'll let this conversation go for now.  Maybe in a week or two, the hype will die down and we can have a real discussion on the relative value of the Yggy.

 
I think your points are fair ones, but I also think you have to bear in mind that you and a few others have been riding the vintage theta hype train, while screaming "choo choo" at the top of your lungs for weeks now, and it looks a wee bit like you may be having trouble sharing the tracks with a shiny new train.  [<- intended in good humor]
 
In all seriousness, I have high hopes for my yggy and would love it if it really does outshine everything I've heard to date.  Maybe it really will, or maybe it will to my ears because I want it to.  The reality is, notwithstanding the cute revised title of the thread, I've head a number of very good SD and R2R sources over the years, and have a family friend with a very good TT (who designs and calibrates tone arms and thinks digital is for the unwashed masses), and my view is that well engineered implementations of differing techs can all produce wonderful music that approximates live.
 
There's a funny anecdote that pops up from time to time in the sound science forum about some late 90's audio show when an elite group of golden ears were supposed to be getting a demo of a new megabuck cd player.  As a joke, someone swapped in an early generation ipod instead.  Lo and behold, the audio press still gave rave reviews.  Deep down, I suspect if schiit dropped bifrosts inside of yggy cases for half the units sold, the recipients would still be on the forums signing their praises and discussing the obvious superiority of the r2r renaissance and moffat filter.   No doubt there are some here who could immediately tell the difference, but I'm not that confident I'm one of them (having never owned a bifrost at least).  Since the mainline accepts two inputs, I'm looking forward to doing some A/B'ing with my other sources to put this to the test when mine arrives.