Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)
Apr 3, 2015 at 7:54 PM Post #3,601 of 6,500
  I'm seriously considering getting the Gungnir to replace my Bifrost Uber.  If they do eventually offer an R2R upgrade card, I may consider it, but the thought of leaving my DAC on all the time to achieve the best sound is unappealing.

 
   
I don't expect you to speak for Mike (and maybe he'll chime in here), but I'm confused about what is driving his comment...

 
Too early for us to speculate. For all we know, the warm-up times could be different. Even Yggy's warm-up times might be reduced with use. Upgrade pricing structure hasn't been determined. Just too early to worry about these things.
 
Apr 3, 2015 at 8:32 PM Post #3,602 of 6,500
   
 
Too early for us to speculate. For all we know, the warm-up times could be different. Even Yggy's warm-up times might be reduced with use. Upgrade pricing structure hasn't been determined. Just too early to worry about these things.


agreed. yggy isn't even out yet and people are worrying about what the pricing structure on future potential upgrades to bifrost/gungnir might be just in case they in fact do trickle down the technology to those DACs? sheesh...
 
Apr 3, 2015 at 8:35 PM Post #3,603 of 6,500
   
LOL, it's all relative. PCM63 > PCM1702 > PCM1704 >> PCM179x. BB stuff got progressively worse sounding.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily say that the PCM63 > PCM1702. I think they both have trade-offs that might make one prefer one over the other. At least when considering similarly priced dacs of course. The implementation on the theta gen V's pcm63 and the digital filter are probably much better than the ones on my transdac. 
 
However... PCM63 and PCM1702 easily beats the M7's PCM1704 (via usb. Never tried i2s).
 
Apr 3, 2015 at 10:28 PM Post #3,604 of 6,500
   
Price is always a factor. Go down the list in the first post and realize the cost of some of the D-S DACs. $8000, $6000, $4000, $3000, etc. I have hunch we may see more R2R DACs at lower prices. Other manufacturers will take note of what Schiit is doing. I can see Analog Devices realize the high volume of sales of the AD5791 and decide to make a high precision chip for audio. Will it always be as cheap at D-S DACs? Probably not. But I see no reason once R2R chips become more widely available and easily used for audio, a company like Emotiva can't make a $799 DAC. Moffat during his presentation at CanJam already hinted at Bifrost and Gungnir while wearing this "Delta-Sigma, when music doesn't matter" T-shirt.


This. I appreciate what Schitt is trying to deliver and I hope Yggy does turn the DAC side of the industry on its ass, primarily because so many lackluster, overpriced, under-engineered products are finding their way to market and it makes people go through the struggle of getting music to sound good (before you get to the headphones/amp part). Mike does have something of an unfair advantage, given his Theta tenure, but that gives his words regarding DAC's some much-needed clout. Yggy will probably prove to be too rich for a lot of people's blood, but it will definitely open the door for an R2R Bifrost or Gungnir (a DAC I was relatively unimpressed with and sold, btw). A lot of other companies will likely need to start from scratch.
 
Apr 3, 2015 at 10:40 PM Post #3,605 of 6,500
I guess. I've heard the 1793 and 1794 and while not terrible, they sound muddy and congested compared to anything that I've heard... :blink:


Curious which 1793 and 1794 dacs you have heard? I know these chips aren't Purrin's personal favorites and assume in equally well engineered implementations, they likely do not hold up to good r2r, but I think there are still some very good dacs out there using these chips. Eg setting aside the overgeneralizations in this thread, I can't imagine the popular opinion here is really that ARC makes worthless unlistenable dacs due to their use of these supposed inferior chips (when they are almost immediately snapped up off a'gon whenever one is up for less than $3k). The digital elite over on computeraudiophile certainly seem to think highly of ARC's recent dacs in any event.

With my mainline hd800 rig I personally prefer my keces (well implemented bb 1793) to both the wolfsons I own (arcam cdp and picodac), which are in turn better than my odac. For reference, my litmus test for purposes of comparison is generally whether violins sound natural and textured or like digital bleh on good decca recordings. I also listen for the timbre of brass and string bass on several high quality recordings recommended by LFF back in the day, before the pirates sailed off for more open waters. In any event, based on the equipment I've lived with, and what Ive heard at CanJam, I don't understand the 1793/1794 hate and would be interested to know which actual dacs are inspiring the criticism (other than ifi products which have been previously called out in this thread). Comparisons between specific dacs are helpful and interesting. Redundant proclamations and backsapping suggesting that anything other than vintage thetas or as yet unreleased yggys should be tossed in the bin are frankly a bit obnoxious.
 
Apr 4, 2015 at 12:55 AM Post #3,609 of 6,500
Redundant proclamations and backsapping suggesting that anything other than vintage thetas or as yet unreleased yggys should be tossed in the bin are frankly a bit obnoxious.

 
I understand the skepticism about the sound of vintage PCM64, UltraAnalog, PCM1702, Yggy, etc. but you should go listen for yourself. I'll usually have private meets a few times a year. We usually have DAC-offs stacking a bunch of different DACs (vintage R2R, modern D-S, R2R) on top of each other. If you are interested, definitely shoot me a pm. Come on by!
 
  
 
 
  
 
  
 
Apr 4, 2015 at 1:02 AM Post #3,610 of 6,500
OOT, but I see there's a Cavalli Liquid Gold there.. What do you think of it compared to say, Ragnarok?
 
Apr 4, 2015 at 1:03 AM Post #3,611 of 6,500
Theta Digital offered upgrades. I put them in almost from the beginning. The only problem was there were no prior precedents in the audio biz. So I followed my gut and experimented away.
 
The problem is that it is difficult to balance in terms of what is fair to the users and to us. I know, I know, Schiit has no loyalty programs, show specials, etc. This is so the guy who just bought his Chingadera from us at no discount will not feel bad when the discount was later offered. Unfair!
 
So what happens when we upgrade the Chingadera to an Uber-Chingadera? Let's dissect the economics a bit. So let's say the Uber costs 50% more to make than the non-uber.
 
Since the Uber then sells for 50% more, and since I am not being a typical high-end audio company, I am not going to discontinue the non-Uber and introduce the Uber at 50% more money, just to sell more units.
 
So since, I am selling a relationship with my company and in a perfect universe, I sell upgrades for the 50% difference and every one is happy, right?
 
Not that simple – if I factor the entire cost of the original Chingadera and the cost of the new parts, then the total cost will be much higher because of the parts sold in the non-uber which are now replaced by the parts on the new PCB, the cost difference is now much higher – say 70%.
 
So, if I am going to stay in business, I can't absorb that cost. The easy way out is to just replace the model as mentioned above. If I am going to offer an upgrade, and the offer is intended to be a perk for my original users, how do I do it?
 
This is what I did at Theta – If the upgrade user was a registered user of the original product, his cost on the upgrade was 20% less than someone who was not an original user. I was flying by the seat of my pants. It did work and it was fair.
 
This made it so the original customers did not have to subsidize those who bought the units second hand. A true loyalty discount. As fair as I can figure.
 
We still had a few whiners – “Well I bought mine used because I didn't have the money for new, etc.” They are still getting a tremendous discount even with a surcharge given almost everyone else's policy of not upgrading at all.
 
So the summary of the policy was:
 
1. We offer upgrades which save money to our users. All users save money on upgrades.
2. We give original users a price break - loyalty is rewarded over opportunism.
 
Have we instigate this policy at Schiit? No, not yet. But we may well do so in the future as our upgrades become a more and more significant portion of the product.
 
Those who think this unfair were advised during the Theta era they were free to purchase anybody else's gear at the time when we were the only manufacturer with an upgrade policy at all. This would still apply today.
 
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Apr 4, 2015 at 2:21 AM Post #3,615 of 6,500
  For the audio gd DAC NFB15, what is the meaning of the 15.32, 15.1, etc? How do i get that? By configuring the DAC itself or requesting from audio gd?

 
Those are older models.  They just changed the name as they updated them to newer models over the years.  The newest model will have everything the older models have and then some.
 

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