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Thoughts on a bunch of DACs (and why delta-sigma kinda sucks, just to get you to think about stuff)

Discussion in 'Dedicated Source Components' started by purrin, Dec 5, 2013.
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  1. Stillhart
     
    I haven't been hearing good things about the PCM1704...
     
    EDIT - Wait, isn't the 1704 the same one in the M7?  Maybe I'm thinking of something else...
     
    conquerator2 likes this.
  2. coli
    Look up the 2010 post earlier in the thread, it looks like R2R historically needs to be on 24/7 to sound best. Probably another reason why the mass market industry moved on.
     
  3. conquerator2
    It is. You're thinking about the 179X ones. Those suck.
     
  4. Stillhart
     
    I have a dual 1795 in my X5 and it sounds fine until you listen to it right after the Yggy.  lol
     
  5. conquerator2
    I guess. I've heard the 1793 and 1794 and while not terrible, they sound muddy and congested compared to anything that I've heard... [​IMG]
     
  6. jacal01
     
    Living on the top (3rd) floor of an apartment complex in Houston, I have the opposite problem.  You don't even want to visualize my in-apartment attire during the summer.  [​IMG]
     
    Contrary to purrin's and MM's pronouncement of the PCM1704 as ass, it's still an R2R DAC chip, and audio-gd does a pretty good job of implementation, especially when Kingwa starts stacking 'em.  Indeed, look at the M7's relative ranking among purrin's audited DACs on Page 1.  The DSP filter is also pretty good.  It's the digital signal input formats that one has to start playing around with.
     
  7. Stillhart
     
    A brand new R2R DAC with manufacturer support under $1000?  Tempting!
     
    And after reading all that talk from the Ayre guy about non-feedback design on InnerFidelity, it makes me want to try the ACSS thing.  Interesting...
     
    Still, I clearly recall Moffat and Purring saying that the PCM17?? was "crap".  I just don't recall which one.  And I already have a crap D-S DAC so no need to sidegrade for that much money.
     
  8. conquerator2
    C'mon, it's not crap... It's 'crap' [​IMG]
    +1 curiosity about the DAC-19, whether it is basically a SE M7 [though with only 2x1704s]
     
  9. purrin
     
    LOL, it's all relative. PCM63 > PCM1702 > PCM1704 >> PCM179x. BB stuff got progressively worse sounding.
     
  10. Clemmaster
    Theta did.
     
  11. Articnoise

    Haha Audio GD is hardly one of the big and famous CD/dac manufacturer that has put the BB 1704 on the map. Companies like MARK LEVINSON, MCINTOSH, WADIA, AYON, KRELL, NAIM and many more have all used the 1704 dac ship in their top CD/DAC and many of them stop using it because they got hard to find, got more expensive and the movement to higher bitrates for DSD/SACD.
     
  12. hodgjy
    I'm seriously considering getting the Gungnir to replace my Bifrost Uber.  If they do eventually offer an R2R upgrade card, I may consider it, but the thought of leaving my DAC on all the time to achieve the best sound is unappealing.  I'm ok with D-S chips because I prefer to turn on my gear, let it warm for 30 mins, and then play. 
     
  13. Stillhart
     
    Clearly you're a fan since you own the M7.  Do you think the DAC-19 is worth a shot?  For all my complaining about the lack of cheap R2R options, I feel like I should grab one now that I know about it!  lol
     
    jacal01 and conquerator2 like this.
  14. 7ryder
     
    I don't expect you to speak for Mike (and maybe he'll chime in here), but I'm confused about what is driving his comment...
     
    1) is he saying that not all owners are created equal?*  'Cause that's the implication if people are charged different prices for the same upgrade. 
    2) or is it his belief that putting in a tiered pricing system for upgrades will result in the sale of more new units with more money going directly to Schiit?
     
    If it is #1, an owner is an owner and, like it or not, if someone owns your product, you're in a relationship even if it was an arranged marriage and someone bought your product used.
     
    If it is #2, as a person that buys cars and most of my audio equipment used, I think I'm prolly like a lot of other folks in saying that I buy used because I can't justify the price of buying new -- Linn, ARC, Parasound, BMW, etc. would not have gotten my money for a new product.  And while these are higher ticket items than Schitt stuff, I think the argument holds for people that buy used Schiit -- they either can't justify buying new or can't afford to buy new, so they buy used.
     
    And I've had upgrades done on my Linn and Parasound stuff and, unless an upgrade was offered to original owners for free, the upgrade price was the same for each owner; there wasn't a different price based upon whether or not the owner bought it used.  And that makes sense since the manufacturer knows what the upgrade costs them and the margin they want and charge accordingly for the upgrade. 
     
    Still, if this tiered upgrade pricing goes into effect, 
    1. It will be interesting to see how a strategy of pricing upgrades for "1st class (original) owners" at one price and a higher upgrade price for "2nd class (used) owners" will play out since customers are smart and know that the cost of the upgrade (parts, labor) is the same; the only difference in the price charged is the profit margin.  
    2. If executed, I think you'd also have to apply this to repair rates as well since, to be consistent, "2nd class owners" don't deserve the same level of service as those in 1st class and will have to pay more for out of warranty repairs.  
    3. And, to route calls properly, Schiit will have to change how the phones are answered  
      1. Sample script - "where'd you get your Schitt?" If they say they bought it new, you look up their account and handle the call right away, directing the call to the Concierge. If they reply "used", then the unwashed masses get put into voicemail so Schiit can keep lines open for people in 1st Class. [​IMG]
     
    Maybe, with their fanclub, Schiit could get away with tiered upgrade pricing, but I question if it is worth it since it is bound to alienate people.  
     
    My advice is to price the upgrade properly and charge/treat everyone the same,since it's one of the things that's made Schiit successful.  
     
    I think Jason understands this Schiit and, hopefully, Mike is just blowing Schiit. 
     
     
     
    *I know from both Jason's book and my own experience that not all customers are equal, but this usually applies to customers you want to fire because they are either PITA and/or you lose money on them. You certainly don't tell this to customers you want to keep!
     
  15. wahsmoh
    I think if you can't take the brash and direct style of Jason and the marketing strategy "Schiit" you've already over-thought this way too much. They didn't have the design or anything layed out when they created the Bifrost and Gungnir. However, in the long run they were planning on making the DAC chip and upgradeable part. There was no R2R Schiit back when Bifrost and Gungnir came out. Trickle-down Yggdrasil is like the trickle-down Theta Gen V to the lower Thetas. It was bound to happen, but the timing wasn't there and we still don't know (or should expect) them to come out with an R2R upgrade soon with their hands full on Yggy orders.
     
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