[itsborken]

This restaurant analogy is irrelevant. Did you pay for your meal up front? Did you reasonably expect to eat sometime before the next meal (not tomorrow, not a year from the time of order)? Did the restaurant owner or wait staff stop by at least once to see how you were doing during the wait?

If I go out for lunch today at 11:30 and have a 1pm meeting is it unreasonable for me to expect my meal to be served before the meeting starts? If it can't, should I at least be presented with other options or be warned it will take significantly longer than normal expectations?

Do problems arise? Sure. Can somebody forget to order components and it delay shipment? Absolutely. Is this the reason the amps haven't shipped yet? No way; these types of components are not that scarce. How do I explain his behavior towards his customers? He simply doesn't give a damn about them.

Psychology has a term named rationalization and it is in full practice here.

 

[itsborken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JwangSDC /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact I could say that EVEN IF he warned all his customers of the possible wait time.

It's called the Uniform Commercial Code. Seller has to notify Buyer in writing if the product cannot be shipped within a month. There is a contract between buyer and seller in this case that civil law would uphold. I doubt that posting the delay on the website would protect him, as these are not custom, one-off products that he couldn't readily resell to someone else.

Oh, but this isn't a business. Yeah, right (not directed at you JwangSDC).

 

[musicmaker]

I'm with you itsborken.

I dont get it when folks say he isn't running a business. He's got a registered business name. He's paying taxes as a business (I hope). He's got my credit card number for a product I was told I'll get in about 1.5 months before I ordered (i have this in writing from him). Which part of this isn't business ?

 

[jamato8]

He is running a business, it is just that he is running it his way. We can define a business any way we choose but that is not the definitive. I am not defending a practice but making a statement, good, bad or indifferent.

 

[musicmaker]

I don't disagree with the definition part. He can run whatever it is he's running any way he wants. I'm just not going to do business with someone that doesn't show their customers professional courtesy.

I'm done with Xin. I hope you guys get your amps sometime and it was worth the insane wait !

 

[jamato8]

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicmaker /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't disagree with the definition part. He can run whatever it is he's running any way he wants. I'm just not going to do business with someone that doesn't show their customers professional courtesy. I'm done with Xin. I hope you guys get your amps sometime and it was worth the insane wait !

I can totally understand and appreciate your stance.

 

[accnut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JwangSDC /img/forum/go_quote.gif What you are saying is very true, but a bit harsh. Except that restaurant clearly stated it outside on a sign. In America there are standard business practices that are established and while I don't agree with them all, ignoring them would be your own fault also. In this case sfflyfish takes the time to rip on all the xin haters and complainers, but using the same sense of logic I could rip on Xin. He's opening what appears to be a business and accepting money via paypal without openly indicating how long it might take to ship the amp. Imagine stumbling across his webpage and ordering and amp via paypal and never getting and contact or amp from him for over 12 months? If that happened to me I could see people going out of their way to report him to paypal and BBB and I could say "Sorry xin, what you think you are doing and what the reality of it is are two separate things". In fact I could say that EVEN IF he warned all his customers of the possible wait time. Now also note that I purchased two amps and have never once complained, nor am I frustrated or upset with Xin. In fact I very much appreciate what he's doing. In today's age of mass produced crap, I love the idea of getting something so high quality and the barrier to getting it only makes it more exclusive and desirable. But I'm not ignorant enough to think that the general public or the general consumer would be smart enough that if they find some product online, they would research it first before purchasing it the way I did. But I am open enough to see their paradigm and understand why they have it even though its wrong.

I certainly don't condone Xin's business practices and I do understand that consumers who know nothing about him wonder what the heck's going on when they don't get products or responses. But I imagine they do what most people do with an online site who has similar practices. They give up, cancel their order, and go somewhere else. As for the people who know about Xin, who have read this incredibly long thread, and who continue to complain for months on end, they're the ones I don't understand.

 

[itsborken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by accnut /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for the people who know about Xin, who have read this incredibly long thread, and who continue to complain for months on end, they're the ones I don't understand.

One can continue to enable his behavior by tacitly accepting it, or do what society does when individuals deviate from the norm. If a little shunning helps his light bulb eventually go on, it will be for his benefit as well as his customers. When he turns his act around and starts shipping or at least communicating the reason for the delay and sets a timetable he will stick to I'll be the first to eat my words and then shut up.

Another reason would be to inform somebody new stumbling on the Xin reviews and *not* taking the time to read the incredibly long thread before placing an order. If not for a few voices of objection this thread would only tell one side of the story.

 

[shiezan]

Well, around the time I ordered my amp about 11 months ago there weren't threads like this to warn people like me from ordering. I remember hearing the wait time was 3 months at worst and on the website itself it claimed a 3 - 4 week ship time.
Also, not everyone knows about head-fi and so there are people who still don't know what kind of trap theyre falling into when they decide to wait through the "3-4 week ship time".

If Xin wants to run his business and complete orders even two or three years after the order confirmation, I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as he warns ahead of time that it will take about 2 - 3 years instead of the 3-4 weeks.

 

[JwangSDC]

I should just place an order for 1000 references and fix this problem.

 

[tubesguy]

I would imagine that part of problem with this thread, for those new to the Xin experience, is the wildly inappropriate thread title, which suggests that one might post here and receive information about the shipping date for one's order. That's what sucked me into reading (some of) it.

 

[itsborken]

It's an interesting read on human nature.

 

[fl00r]

It’s sad to see that what started as a informative, fun to read thread slowly turned into a thread of frustrated people who vent their displeasure (appropriate or not).
I’ve been there and waited almost nine months for the Reference. During the wait there were several moments that I thought about throw in the towel and although I think Xin makes excellent amps, it ain’t worth waiting for thát long.

No more Xin’s for me.

 

[aluren]

well there's nothing else to talk about since no one's been getting their amps!

for me, i think i ordered a supermicro in september 07 and i've already forgotten about it. if it comes in, great. if it doesn't, who cares... i'm not getting charged through my credit card. i've moved on to other amps, specifically the pico. i have the xin reference beta amp, and honestly, it's not THAT much better than the RSA amps that i've had... definitely not worth all the bitter wait anyways... one thing that needs to change is the mindset on xin amps. it is not the holy grail of portable amps imo.

 

[Jaw007]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aluren /img/forum/go_quote.gif well there's nothing else to talk about since no one's been getting their amps! for me, i think i ordered a supermicro in september 07 and i've already forgotten about it. if it comes in, great. if it doesn't, who cares... i'm not getting charged through my credit card. i've moved on to other amps, specifically the pico. i have the xin reference beta amp, and honestly, it's not THAT much better than the RSA amps that i've had... definitely not worth all the bitter wait anyways... one thing that needs to change is the mindset on xin amps. it is not the holy grail of portable amps imo.

In your opinion ,what is the holy grail of portable amps?