The Zishan dsd's corner
Mar 15, 2019 at 7:32 PM Post #2,191 of 3,711
I REALLY struggle with this... :sweat:

What do you mean when you say "conversions directly to AK449xx chip"?

Oscillators provide clock reference, replacing them with more stable versions (like I and some other members here and on russian counterpart forum, which is absolutely safe to use by the way, done) improves jitter, which has positive effect on HF quality (softening highs up) and soundstage. Replacement parts are readily available from arrow and their codes are easy to find using search function in this thread, so the hard work of finding suitable and compatible yet inexpensive components and confirming that they work has been collectively done.

TPS73250 does not do ANY processing whatsoever, it provides AK4497 with 5V power source, used to power analog output section of AK4497 and serve as a VREF. Compared to (genuine, but lower quality, not "fake") stock LDO it has reduced noise, providing yet another incremental quality upgrade.

The effects of oscillator and LDO replacement are similar (as described above), but reason for improvement is different: less jitter induced distortion (which is not harmonic distortion by the way and thus is much more noticeable); less noise in 5V power supply decreases noise floor and its masking effects (very noticeable on long reverb tails for example), and (most importantly) stable VREF is crucially important in DA conversion, as fluctuating/noisy VREF voltage introduces noise/distortion. Another way to improve VREF stability is to add capacitance, which has been done by few members, including myself. Please also refer to the extract from AK4490 evaluation board manual (older revisions, it's been redacted from current version):

vrefcap.png


I believe the best way is just replace both oscillators and LDOs and add VREF capacitance and have a good listen, this will leave very little room for speculations as to what effect replacements/upgrades may have and which component has more significant effect on sound quality, again this has been done by a few members already, who posted their impressions in this thread.

As to the basic electrical practices, how are they related to Moore's law? Moore's law is related to transistor count increase in CPUs, while LDO's have had only few transistors for for last 30 years since they were introduced....


“convolution” not conversion. It was a typo.

“to the basic electrical practices, how are they related to Moore's law? Moore's law is related to transistor count increase in CPUs, while LDO's have had only few transistors for for last 30 years since they were introduced....”

No comment.

“Computer chips, both for CPU and memory, are composed of semiconductor materials. Semiconductors make it possible to miniaturize electronic components, such as transistors. Not only does miniaturization mean that the components take up less space, it also means that they are faster and require less energy.”

LDOs power the CPUs as well. It’s a computer chip. The ministurization is Moore’s Law. The CPU is also POWERED by the LDOs as well on the Zishan Motherboard! Basic electrical knowledge probably would explain noise from the ground if they are not performing up to par on the Motherboard and CPU/Oscillator performance so it would effect YOUR sound on the DAC or if you Spinal tap your DAC with the Op1622 mod then wonder why you are getting noise with you connect the DAC to the LED, it’s controllers and the CPU. So you are saying the Stock ones are just as good?? Then why did you change them and keeping saying they “rock” because something isn’t adding up? What “rocks”? The Matrix Quote??

Please explain what you mean then but it “rocks”?

I scratch my head why someone would put a Opa1622 which is designed for headphone Amps without crossfeed circuitry in the Zishan damaged the board trying to get rid of ground noise then asking for charity to solve this problem for it?

I’m struggling to understand.
 
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Mar 15, 2019 at 8:46 PM Post #2,192 of 3,711
Apologies, I’m quite happy to share the knowledge (give AND receive), but I only feel like doing it in the context of mutual respect and appreciation, the way this thread used to be (and will be, I’m certain).
I refuse to donate my time to trolling, personal agendas and confrontation (if that’s not the case again my apologies, I’ve got it wrong then but I still don’t feel like repeating Merlin-PT’s experience, helping out only to be insulted)
As one of members said unsubscribing “life’s too short” and I respect and treasure my time and energy.
Peace and good luck with your mods, would be good to see some photos of them implemented and impressions about the change how Zishan sounds.
 
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Mar 15, 2019 at 9:30 PM Post #2,193 of 3,711
Apologies, I’m quite happy to share the knowledge (give AND receive), but I only feel like doing it in the context of mutual respect and appreciation, the way this thread used to be (and will be, I’m certain).
I refuse to donate my time to trolling, personal agendas and confrontation (if that’s not the case again my apologies, I’ve got it wrong then but I still don’t feel like repeating Merlin-PT’s experience, helping out only to be insulted)
As one of members said unsubscribing “life’s too short” and I respect and treasure my time and energy.
Peace and good luck with your mods, would be good to see some photos of them implemented and impressions about the change how Zishan sounds.

An integrated circuit (IC), sometimes called a chip or microchip, is a semiconductor wafer on which thousands or millions of tiny resistors, capacitors, and transistors are fabricated. An IC can function as an amplifier, oscillator, timer, counter, computer memory, or microprocessor.

The Zishan is MICRO electronics. Again Moore’s Law. Some say it’s over though now you have TPU’s like in Google’s Pixel Tech that use cloud service AI so you don’t need two lens to supremes results compared to the market forces.

“Advancements in digital electronics are strongly linked to Moore's law: quality-adjusted microprocessor prices,[11]memory capacity, sensors and even the number and size of pixelsin digital cameras.[12] Digital electronics has contributed to world economic growth in the late twentieth and early twenty-first centuries.[13] Moore's law describes a driving force of technological and social change, productivity, and economic growth.[14][15][16][17]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law

Texas Instruments has over 2,000 schemes including a headphone amp for free. You might wanna start there first before you attempt to juxtapose one on the Zishan board.
 
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Mar 16, 2019 at 12:26 AM Post #2,194 of 3,711
Guys, just asking I want to pull the trigger on zishan dsd and I have watching thread in the past days. Curious question.. what sound signature does the zishan dsd emits when compared with other good/best sounding daps?

I have zishan z1 and I just plan to upgrade.. In my z1 I only did opamp swapping with 1692, 2209, Sparkos, Burson, and ADA tiers. I would love to do the mods than by IvanTT and Merlin and just seeking some opinions. Honestly, I have not hear the sound of the Zishan DSD. Thanks.
 
Mar 16, 2019 at 1:11 AM Post #2,195 of 3,711
Guys, just asking I want to pull the trigger on zishan dsd and I have watching thread in the past days. Curious question.. what sound signature does the zishan dsd emits when compared with other good/best sounding daps?
It's a really, really tricky one.
In stock you probably will be somewhat underwhelmed, I still enjoy and long Z1-mx500 synergy, which has nothing to do with correct reproduction across frequency/dynamics/soundstage domains, but has "magic" written all over it. Do not expect it from DSD, especially in stock.
Having said that DSD is (even in stock) is a details/uncoloured/true-the-way-it-is monster and mods bring out those qualities even more, but it's a different kind of magic game, analytical approach taken to a level where it is (quoting U2) "even better than the real thing".
And then your Z1 experience is lost as the pure musicality of delivery is still there, but you long the details and clarity of DSD's presentation, while not having that musicality of Z1's delivery.
There's a saying used a lot on a russian couterpart forum, "audiophile has to suffer", it's very, very unfortunately true :floatsmile:
Is it worth it still? (upgrading to DSD)
Absolutely!
 
Mar 16, 2019 at 1:22 AM Post #2,196 of 3,711
I've done a bit of poking around, with my Voltmeter, and determined that the +3.7Vdc (+3.98Vdc actually) from the battery gets switched through to the analog board, when the DSD is powered On.

I'm currently looking on eBay, to see if there are any DC-DC Step-Up converters, that have symmetrical (+) and (-) voltage outputs (12V to 15V), with enough current to power all three output op-amps (2x for Balanced, 1x for Single-Ended). Seems like most of them have a fairly small amount of output current.

An alternate would be to use a higher current, single output DC-DC Step-Up converter (24V to 30V), adding a low impedance ground buffer, to create a virtual, centered GND, and +V & -V rails.
 
Mar 16, 2019 at 1:45 AM Post #2,197 of 3,711
It's a really, really tricky one.
In stock you probably will be somewhat underwhelmed, I still enjoy and long Z1-mx500 synergy, which has nothing to do with correct reproduction across frequency/dynamics/soundstage domains, but has "magic" written all over it. Do not expect it from DSD, especially in stock.
Having said that DSD is (even in stock) is a details/uncoloured/true-the-way-it-is monster and mods bring out those qualities even more, but it's a different kind of magic game, analytical approach taken to a level where it is (quoting U2) "even better than the real thing".
And then your Z1 experience is lost as the pure musicality of delivery is still there, but you long the details and clarity of DSD's presentation, while not having that musicality of Z1's delivery.
There's a saying used a lot on a russian couterpart forum, "audiophile has to suffer", it's very, very unfortunately true :floatsmile:
Is it worth it still? (upgrading to DSD)
Absolutely!

@Ivan TT , sounds very convincing now..the challenge of doing the mods is one of the things that influence DIY'ers like us :) :) Thanks
 
Mar 16, 2019 at 6:25 AM Post #2,198 of 3,711
I've done a bit of poking around, with my Voltmeter, and determined that the +3.7Vdc (+3.98Vdc actually) from the battery gets switched through to the analog board, when the DSD is powered On.

I'm currently looking on eBay, to see if there are any DC-DC Step-Up converters, that have symmetrical (+) and (-) voltage outputs (12V to 15V), with enough current to power all three output op-amps (2x for Balanced, 1x for Single-Ended). Seems like most of them have a fairly small amount of output current.

An alternate would be to use a higher current, single output DC-DC Step-Up converter (24V to 30V), adding a low impedance ground buffer, to create a virtual, centered GND, and +V & -V rails.

Sounds very practical. I’ve been asking about how to do this like forever. This is the ONLY mod I’m interested in. Of course it doesn’t get the traction it should. Would love to see how to do this when completing your results.

Increasing the Voltage would allow the amps to play better. I’m thinking.

Personally, I believe the gain in the lpf is too high. I think they do this as a gimmick. First impression when gain or volume is high that it sounds better but it’s not true and often causes clipping. The recording practices have also changed a lot from the days of analog as they tend to jack up the dbs close to 0 and normalize with less head room. In the analog does they were more frugal in played it safe for the sake of dynamic range.
 
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Mar 16, 2019 at 10:11 AM Post #2,199 of 3,711
Does anyone know if there will be ak4499 version?
 
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Mar 16, 2019 at 12:27 PM Post #2,200 of 3,711
Would explain the 22oms down to 10oms mod made on this thread??

Because an output impedance of 22Ohms for a portable player means that you won't able to drive most of the hybrid/multi-BA iems on the market without distortions and frequency response alterations.
I would have removed them but not without replacing the discrete buffer output stage, which, I guess, still needs a bit of short circuit protection.
Decreasing the output impedance will improve the performance of hybrid and multiBA iems.
When I'll replace the discrete buffer output stage with an operational amplifier I'll remove those 10ohm resistors too to have the lowest possible output impedance.

I upgraded the firmware to my zishan to 0.4I version and I confirm the feedback that IvanTT has given about the sound: better highs and better soundstage.

I still dont't like the sub bass response of the zishan, I'll try to replace the output caps with bigger ones hoping to improve the sub bass response.

About replacing the discrete ouput buffer, any thought about the tpa6120 mod that MerlinPT has linked from the russian forum? Has anyone tried a buf634 mod?
 
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Mar 16, 2019 at 12:31 PM Post #2,201 of 3,711
So you lower the dbs on the tracks. Same principle and problem solved with more control with Eq and Digital filters. Also by jacking up the resistors doesn’t drive the iems only jacks up the Ohms. How doesn’t it distort frequencies if anything they would be underpowered. Voltage would be a better option as in Ohms Law.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm's_law
 
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Mar 16, 2019 at 1:06 PM Post #2,203 of 3,711
Sorry but I'm unable to understand how is this correlated to a completely screwed up freq. reponse.
All you doing is jacking up the gain to hear those frequencies. If anything if it’s ohms are underpowered it would sound more like an old Rotary phone receiver because ohms can’t “power” the headphones.

When you Jack up the gain you get distortion and noise. Not the other way around.

This how you get the FX on a distortion pedal in electric guitars same principle at work. This is Basic stuff.

I believe DC Step ups and getting the voltage up is a better option but I’m not as advanced Ivan so we’ll just have to get his input before the thread does anything and then folks his lead regardless.
 
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Mar 16, 2019 at 1:07 PM Post #2,204 of 3,711
I updated the firmware to 0.4I too, but got some crashes, 3 in a day, the 2 with a time gap of 10 seconds (crashed, booted off, booted on, started playing, crashed again). The files that were playing when this happened were some mp3s, 44.1k 16bit.
Also, are the colours more saturated (mainly on the spectrograph), or is it in my mind?
 
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