The Zishan dsd's corner

[Merlin-PT]

The audio path is this:
DAC - 4x 100uF - 2x opa275 - 2.5mm output
So when you change these, listen to the 2.5mm output.

DAC - 4x 100uF - 2x opa275 - 1xLM4562 - discrete transistors - 2x 220uF - 3.5mm output
First part are the same components from before, but it also goes to the socket opamp before the 2.5mm output.

So all the caps and all opamps affect 3.5mm output, but only the 2x opa275 and the 4x100uF affect the 2.5mm output, so tune 2.5mm output to your liking first.
You can use higher voltage without a problem.

I use the expression audio path to differentiate these caps from the power supply reserve and filtering caps.

 

[kookaudio]

When you guys say audio path you mean the 2 close to the 3.5 and 2.5 mm Jack's or the ones close to the opamps, or all? I was thinking of changing all but im not too sure what to order, and about the nichicon muse I can only find 25volts, no 10 or 16 volt is that going to be a problem? Sorry bout all the noob questions but I would like to get as much info as possible, and not make too many mistakes

Voltage not a problem, but they are bigger...
Why not Silmic II...?

 

[Themilkman46290]

Voltage not a problem, but they are bigger...
Why not Silmic II...?

Well I haven't ordered but I might order some silmic II, haven't decided what to order

 

[endia]

I found this article interesting, still I only tried Nichicon and Panasonic.
http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html

The best is to try in our circuit and listen.

You'll need to buy genuine capacitors, I've bought 2 or 3 elna and nichicon models in Aliexp and they sounded bad.
After I got the genuine parts, the sound had nothing to do with the fakes.

I like Nichicon FG (fine gold), they also have a reasonable size and price.
To me they sound better than the other nichicon models bellow them.
They say that MUSE KZ are the nichicon top and I also like them, but they are less warm, they are big in size they don't fit here.
I didn't like the MUSE ES much in some circuits, but in others they sounded better.
I prefered the warm of FG in most of the circuits I tried, to the "better" KZ, but sill used KZ in some circuits. Maybe they need better circuits or it's just my personal taste.

So try in audio path: Nichicon FG, KZ, maybe also ES. FW, KW if FG doesn't fit.

I started trying Panasonic recently: FC, FR, FM, FS.

Here in zishan, I've being shifting between nichicon FG and some of the panasonic models, depending on the opamp used.
I don't have more to try... I didn't like the only one rubycon model I tried in the audio path.

may I suggest audio note caps;
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/470uf-25v-audio-note-standard-electrolytic.html

replaced stock elna re3s with these audio notes in my 4495 dsd. these are miles better than re3s.. can't compare with silmic, fine gold etc. since didn't try them in dsd but different applications..

they have kind of warm and natural timbre, very musical sounding caps imho..

 

[Themilkman46290]

The audio path is this:
DAC - 4x 100uF - 2x opa275 - 2.5" output
So when you change these, listen to the 2.5" output.

DAC - 4x 100uF - 2x opa275 - 1xLM4562 - discrete transistors - 2x 220uF - 3.5" output
First part are the same components from before, but it also goes to the socket opamp before the 2.5" output.

So all the caps and all opamps affect 3.5" output, but only the 2x opa275 and the 4x100uF affect the 2.5" output, so tune 2.5" output to your liking first.
You can use higher voltage without a problem.

I use the expression audio path to differentiate these caps from the power supply reserve and filtering caps.

Thanks, that's what I was hoping to find me out, I have 2 zishans, and decided to focus on the 2.5mm in one of them, and the other is the older low impedance version, I want to use the for the SE 3.5 and line out. So this info helps a lot, and does anyone know, can I remove the opamp if I am not using the 3.5 on the ak4497 version?

And has anyone tried running the caps in parallel, was thinking if the 100mf 16v nichicon fg doesn't fit, what if to use two 47 mf 16v in parallel, would that work? Anyone tried? I read it has some advantages but im not too educated to say..

 

[Ivan TT]

I think no point removing opamp and as it will produce DC on the discrete buffer’s input (so may make battery life less, even if dc is blocked by the output caps).

Paralleling output caps is a smart idea, never even thought about it! The advantage is lowering ESR (so the caps will not appear as resistance, or at least will appear as half of what would equivalent high capacity cap will have, that’s one if the reasons why there’s 2x3 caps on the power rails BTW).

But don’t forget that output caps is a necessary evil, so while they introduce their sonic signature they are taxing on the sound quality compared to not having them at all. Fair enough you may find their contribution pleasing and that’s great, but similar to different opamps at the end of the day it’s about sonically pleasing degradation of the signal.

 

[Merlin-PT]

I also want to try elna, audio note and others, but didn't had the chance to buy them yet.

@Themilkman46290
The max cap diameter that will fit stock case to replace the 4x100uF is ~6.3mm.
So the nichicon FG 100uF 10V with 6.3 X 11mm will fit:
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/ufg1a101mem/nichicon

 

[Themilkman46290]

I also want to try elna, audio note and others, but didn't had the chance to buy them yet.

@Themilkman46290
The max cap diameter that will fit stock case to replace the 4x100uF is ~6.3mm.
So the nichicon FG 100uF 10V with 6.3 X 11mm will fit:
https://www.arrow.com/en/products/ufg1a101mem/nichicon

But those should be 16 volt, if I use 10 volt is that safe, I understand I can go up in voltage but thought going down was a no no?

Like I said, I am not very smart on this stuff, also will running two 10 volt caps in parallel increase there voltage to 20, let say I use a 10 volt and a 6.3 volt, would this be equivalent to 16 volt or would it just be 10 volt and 6.3......blown out and fried like a battery, running parallel only increases capacitance and not voltage?

what are you guys using for the balanced out?

I see a lot of people saying that wima are better but I always thought electrolytic was better.

So far I am thinking of using 8 47mfd 25 volt nichicon fg series, they are 6.3x12.5 I have some old caps that size and tossed them between the boards for measurements and they seem to fit just barely

And as far as the two 10volt 470 mfd caps, I was thinking of using a couple 1000 mfd 16 volt nichicon es. Or just taking them out of the other zishan and adding them to this one in parallel

Can anyone tell me if this is a bad idea or if there is any better ideas?

 

[Merlin-PT]

Yes you are right in your reasoning, but they could also be using 16V because the can use any voltage above the necessary.
I've measured the DC voltage between the capacitor legs and it measures 2.55V, so I personally decided to use 10V capacitors there, but maybe someone else can also comment on this, my understanding is also limited.

The capacitor specification voltage it's a maximum allowed at capacitor legs, the real value we can use will be bellow that max spec.
It doesn't sum.

 

[Ivan TT]

maybe someone else can also comment on this

Output decoupling caps block DC that MAY be present on the amps output.
Worst case scenario would be rails (power supply voltage appearing on the amps audio output) which is about 9V in stock DSD.
Normally output voltage will be way below that as the maximum voltage will be determined by music played and volume setting and resulting output voltage.
Thus 10V caps should not be a problem at all i believe, although usually good design practice dictates using higher voltage rated caps.

 

[Merlin-PT]

I've increased the capacity in the dac VREF and edit this post with the photo:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the-zishan-dsds-corner.826185/page-109#post-14749964

I had also soldered 0.1uF on top of these two 10uF caps near the DAC, because they also use them in AK datasheet:
(EDIT: I read that the 0.1uF should be closer to the dac legs, probably better to solder them on side or bottom of the 10uF, not on top)


I've also replaced the 33k resistor connected to pin 58 of the DAC, with a 33K 0.1% precision, because they recommended in the datasheet to use 0.1%.

 

[Themilkman46290]

I couldn't get 10volt 100uF so decided to try 2 47uF 16volt in parallel, so ordered 8 fg and 8 es in those sizes, 4 x16volt 470uF es and kz series. The place I ordered from didn't have 10 or 16 volt Elna in those denomination, they had mainly 25 volts and up and then they end up bigger then the new batteries and may not fit but like I said, I have 2 zishans dsds and I am modding both boxes, one remade out of wood and the other extended with metal, the latter will allow 16x80 mm space beside the batteries, figure it should fit there. The wooden case will be longer ( enough for two 18500 batteries) but thinner and a bit wider, it's all in progress but I will post when its done

 

[Merlin-PT]

The stock cap values are 4 caps 100uF each and 2 caps 220uF each, so you plan to experiment with 470uF ?
Why didn't you got also the same values as stock just to see if it's different to increase?
Let us know how it sounds.

Also first try 4x 47uF first and listen, then try the 8x 47uF, see if the bass goes deeper or if it's the same.

 

[Themilkman46290]

I read somewhere that they all should be much higher, thought I would see what happens, don't have a clue

But when I was a teenager with a '96 Buick park avenue and 2 x 15" subs in my trunk, those bigger caps let the sub bass hit really hard with less clipping and distortion, thought I might give it a go

 

[Themilkman46290]

The stock cap values are 4 caps 100uF each and 2 caps 220uF each, so you plan to experiment with 470uF ?
Why didn't you got also the same values as stock just to see if it's different to increase?
Let us know how it sounds.

Also first try 4x 47uF first and listen, then try the 8x 47uF, see if the bass goes deeper or if it's the same.

The 2 caps on my dsd say 470uF not 220uF. Is yours different from mine?