The Zishan dsd's corner
Feb 8, 2019 at 12:24 PM Post #1,696 of 3,711
Yes, I think it's like that, but I have no idea of the current they provide.
Sometimes I bypass those transistors, other times I used them, depending on what sounds better, but I think they bring some frequencies forward and limit others.

For now I'm still trying different LPF opamps and listening only to the 2.5 output.
I almost happy with it, but there's something I still need to solve.
In some songs that are sibilant, I have excessive sibilance, beside that, 2.5 output sounds very good here.

I also saw that the LPF cut freq. is 186khz, probably because of high definition formats, but isn't that outside the hearing range?
I wonder is there's any other noise there...

Acording to this chart, sibilance is around 6k to 8kHz:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

For now I'm changing LPF opamps and listening.
 
Feb 8, 2019 at 11:49 PM Post #1,697 of 3,711
Ivan- At this point why not just design a couple of different concept schemes and have them made on brand new better-made PCB boards? It just seems that the Zishan DSD board isn't made by the best stuff, to begin with, but your mods are dope!

Changelog:
Removed 1 opa1622 as it was not really necessary, now 2.5mm is post muting relay, configured as pseudo-balanced using two separate buffered grounds.
Created traces from DAC to Subtractor (Opamp in DIP8 socket) using 0 ohm resistors.
Returned subtractor resistors to stock positions, using 0805 0.1% 820Ohm thin film Panasonics (better match for AD797 and better precision compared to stock)
Moved post-substractor LPF capacitor onto 1622 boards (tidier this way, only needed if using AD797 to avoid oscillations)
After washing the board DC is 0.7mV in both channels, sound is obviously amazing.

556029-D3-DC81-4219-8-A4-B-55-AB9-B62-AD9-A.jpg
[/QUOTE]
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 12:04 AM Post #1,698 of 3,711
Hi, I'm a newbie on this thread and to HG. I've had my Zishan DSD Pro for several months and I finally decided to make some mods to it. Having zero experience with Op Amp rolling nor solder nor DIY electronics. Nonetheless, I gave it go on my first upgrade which sort of became a botched job. I "soldered" two Opa2107 in place of the op275 and I liked the sound but it was way too low in amplification which seems odd since I cross-referenced it so I think I'll need to replace the capacitors?? Voltage Regulators?? Currently, my Zishan isn't fully operational (waiting for some supplies to come in) mainly to fix the embarrassing soldering job I did to install the Opa2107. I ordered another Zishan DSD in case I mess this one pretty bad.

Any suggestions??? Thanks.
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 2:04 AM Post #1,699 of 3,711
Hi, I'm a newbie on this thread and to HG. I've had my Zishan DSD Pro for several months and I finally decided to make some mods to it. Having zero experience with Op Amp rolling nor solder nor DIY electronics. Nonetheless, I gave it go on my first upgrade which sort of became a botched job. I "soldered" two Opa2107 in place of the op275 and I liked the sound but it was way too low in amplification which seems odd since I cross-referenced it so I think I'll need to replace the capacitors?? Voltage Regulators?? Currently, my Zishan isn't fully operational (waiting for some supplies to come in) mainly to fix the embarrassing soldering job I did to install the Opa2107. I ordered another Zishan DSD in case I mess this one pretty bad.

Any suggestions??? Thanks.
I cant suggest much but i can say that if your not experienced in soldering, you should be very very very careful, this board seems flimsy, shouldnt be heated for long periods of time, in general its not recommended to use a soldering iron but a hot air type soldering station. I am not saying you cant, but i am saying the board is cheap, easy to burn so be careful
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 4:25 AM Post #1,700 of 3,711
Ivan- At this point why not just design a couple of different concept schemes and have them made on brand new better-made PCB boards? It just seems that the Zishan DSD board isn't made by the best stuff, to begin with, but your mods are dope!
Fair enough and thanks for the compliment!
I'm having lots of fun essentially prototyping various circuits (the latest one is based on INA1622, already have opamp soldered onto a breakout board, just need to find some time and figure out best way to add caps/hook it up) and exploring sonic results. My knowledge and experience in creation of PCBs is limited (non-existent) and pricing of PCB manufacture + components make it not really viable. But i DO like the idea, as this will allow to easily utilise latest TPS7A LDOs all across for example.
I ordered another Zishan DSD in case I mess this one pretty bad.
Donate (or sell cheaply, postage on me either way) it to me when you do, I promise to turn it even into a more outrageous hack! :wink:
Applies to all buggered Zishan's out there by the way!
 
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Feb 9, 2019 at 5:08 AM Post #1,701 of 3,711
Fair enough and thanks for the compliment!
I'm having lots of fun essentially prototyping various circuits (the latest one is based on INA1622, already have opamp soldered onto a breakout board, just need to find some time and figure out best way to add caps/hook it up) and exploring sonic results. My knowledge and experience in creation of PCBs is limited (non-existent) and pricing of PCB manufacture + components make it not really viable. But i DO like the idea, as this will allow to easily utilise latest TPS7A LDOs all across for example!

http://s.aliexpress.com/miYn2EZ7

That could be with some co-opration in ordering stocks of parts and making some DIY work...
 
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Feb 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Post #1,702 of 3,711
Hi, I'm a newbie on this thread and to HG. I've had my Zishan DSD Pro for several months and I finally decided to make some mods to it. Having zero experience with Op Amp rolling nor solder nor DIY electronics. Nonetheless, I gave it go on my first upgrade which sort of became a botched job. I "soldered" two Opa2107 in place of the op275 and I liked the sound but it was way too low in amplification which seems odd since I cross-referenced it so I think I'll need to replace the capacitors?? Voltage Regulators?? Currently, my Zishan isn't fully operational (waiting for some supplies to come in) mainly to fix the embarrassing soldering job I did to install the Opa2107. I ordered another Zishan DSD in case I mess this one pretty bad.

Any suggestions??? Thanks.

Hi,
Some opamps will give a bit lower volume, but you only need to increase the volume 1 or 2 steps to compensate, not more.
Maybe they aren't well soldered or there's a short somewhere, you shouldn't need to change anything else in the circuit after changing the opamps (if you use a compatible/equivalent opamp).

After you solder something that small, you need to inspect if all pins are connected and there aren't any short circuits, before you power it on.
I use a 3 eur chinese plastic lens microscope if my eyes can't see.
Another idea is to use a digital camera macro lens and connect it to the computer display/TV for real time video.
Simple method is just taking some photos and zoom for circuit inspection.

When things don't work like they should, I use a multimeter to check for the circuit continuity, meaning I look at the circuit schematic in paper and trace it in the PCB to the components, checking if the same paths are connected or if there are any short circuits.
I also measure the power supply pins, to see if the ICs are powered and with what voltage.

Those SMD opamps are difficult to remove with the wrong tools, you should use a hot air soldering station and precision tweezers, it only requires a steady hand.
When we don't have previous experience, best is to see some videos in youtube and then pratice the same you will be doing with a trash old board.
This was the first time I used a hot air gun, so I practiced a bit in a old board, the first thing I discovered is the fan speed must be low or all the components will fly from the PCB. :) Now I do it very well.

If you want post some photos of the soldered opamps, maybe we can see something.
 
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Feb 9, 2019 at 11:33 AM Post #1,703 of 3,711
Thanks Merlin!

I did watch some videos and bought magnifying glass eyeglasses with 4 different magnitude from Amazon and I hear you what you are saying about the eyes not being too good anymore!

The sucker was hard to get off even with tweezers but I evenly did get the op275 off and unsoldered two capacitors in the process (that evenly soldered back together).

The problem I experienced wasn’t anything anyone mention what my actual solder. It wasn’t made up of Rosin Flux and came Stock with my iron. It just burnt in clumps and it was hard to maneuver.

Honestly, my boards isn’t as messy as other mods I’ve seen so I’m not really worried that I can’t fix it even with zero and little knowledge. In my experience the only way to learn something is to get through the growing pains of making mistakes NOT giving up.

So here’s where I’m at with the Amp since it is soldered terribly and I waiting to receive some Chip Quik which ain’t cheap to remove it on low heat.

There’s a resistor to the right of one of them I’m concerned got misplaced with heat too so it’s trial and error.

As far as giving less volume in some amps in normal conditions, I believe you have to mod even more of the specs to accommodate the board.

What is odd is that EVERYONE and there mother has tried to make the ak4497 on Zishan Dsd board and there are NO upgrades to the ARM board on the software side.

Having Zero Experience again I’d like to know if could drop a Raspberry Pi Or Quad Core Chip board for even more usability, options and better performance but that’s in the long run.

Evenly I want to make a dual mono ak4497eq balanced with 2 boards each running on one channel.

So if you have say you have two boards running independently on mono with one chip per channel you have more option and quality in sound of the op amps and filters.

The AK4499 will have 4 channels per chips makes 8 if it’s in stereo on two chips a bit of overload but hey!

Lastly, I’ve read these forums and they have been HIGHLY informative I’ve learn at lot just reading people’s experiments.

One thing that missing is with all the mods nobody as actually written down what sound they are chasing. That’s a good starting point to know what you want and where you are heading... and at the end it’s all about experiencing the ultimate sonic sounds to your ears!









Some opamps will give a bit lower volume, but you only need to increase the volume 1 or 2 steps to compensate, not more.
Maybe they aren't well soldered or there's a short somewhere, you shouldn't need to change anything else in the circuit after changing the opamps (if you use a compatible/equivalent opamp).

After you solder something that small, you need to inspect if all pins are connected and there aren't any short circuits, before you power it on.
I use a 3 eur chinese plastic lens microscope if my eyes can't see.
Another idea is to use a digital camera macro lens and connect it to the computer display/TV for real time video.
Simple method is just taking some photos and zoom for circuit inspection.

When things don't work like they should, I use a multimeter to check for the circuit continuity, meaning I look at the circuit schematic in paper and trace it in the PCB to the components, checking if the same paths are connected or if there are any short circuits.
I also measure the power supply pins, to see if the ICs are powered and with what voltage.

Those SMD opamps are difficult to remove with the wrong tools, you should use a hot air soldering station and precision tweezers, it only requires a steady hand.
When we don't have previous experience, best is to see some videos in youtube and then pratice the same you will be doing with a trash old board.
This was the first time I used a hot air gun, so I practiced a bit in a old board, the first thing I discovered is the fan speed must be low or all the components will fly from the PCB. :) Now I do it very well.

If you want post some photos of the soldered opamps, maybe we can see something.[/QUOTE]
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 1:01 PM Post #1,705 of 3,711
The LPF circuit has a gain of 2 and I never went above volume level 22 with all the opamps I tried, so I don't see the need to increase the opamp gain.

The sound I'm always looking for is the correct representation of real world instruments and voice, the representation of reality.
I'm listening to jazz, bossa nova, to music with acoustic instruments and voice.
First I want the correct pitch and tone in each instrument and voices, I want it to sound real, then I want more detail without being tiring.
After that there's personal preference, I like voices a tiny bit forward and not in the back.

I want a natural and detailed sound without being tiring, but also full of emotion and impact.
This is what I always look for, doesn't mean that I can get it :wink:

If I were listening to electronic music, I could have other priorities.
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 2:11 PM Post #1,706 of 3,711
I grew up in my formative years on CD and can say that when I first got into Jazz, they had just reissued Kind of Blue and fixed the Pitch correction so I thought that was cool.

I never really noticed pitch correction and what I have noticed is that “clocking” and upsampling and sampling is extreme important for this reason; Also Hard to do!

If like the Zishan and Jazz at home, I recommend you get a dual mono preamp ak4497 from AliExpress. I saw just a board for like 78 bucks on eBay. I have one and it’s killer. You can op amp rolling as well!

Not sure how that works with capacitors in pitch correction? All I know is that I ordered some capacitors from Arrow and they said “Radical 2.5mm” So I’m assuming that 3.5 and 5.5 mm are set at a different pitch.

I don’t like to listen to music loud anymore either but I do want to be able to hear the entire landscape at a reasonable volume.

The thing I’m blown away by the AKM Chips is that they sound awesome more natural and I agree with the instrumentals. Personally I listen to everything I like digital “clean” sound but it has to mixed with warm.

To me anyway, too much analog sound can also sound bad. It’s like have spin a LP when the power is off.

Yea it seems you and I have very similar taste in sound. What is cool about electronic music is that it’s gotten so good today that you have nuances in things like bass so you get into the sound very much like Jazz. It’s actually cool when it’s clear and analog too! At least for me :wink:


The LPF circuit has a gain of 2 and I never went above volume level 22 with all the opamps I tried, so I don't see the need to increase the opamp gain.

The sound I'm always looking for is the correct representation of real world instruments and voice, the representation of reality.
I'm listening to jazz, bossa nova, to music with acoustic instruments and voice.
First I want the correct pitch and tone in each instrument and voices, I want it to sound real, then I want more detail without being tiring.
After that there's personal preference, I like voices a tiny bit forward and not in the back.

I want a natural and detailed sound without being tiring, but also full of emotion and impact.
This is what I always look for, doesn't mean that I can get it :wink:

If I were listening to electronic music, I could have other priorities.[/QUOTE]
 
Feb 9, 2019 at 2:49 PM Post #1,707 of 3,711
I was trying to say pitch(=frequency) as like the note or voice shouldn't sound higher freq (thinner), or lower freq than the original.
For example when listening to voice, if it lacks the mids low freq. (the body), the whole voice will sound thinner than the original, because the bass part is missing.

I also like electronic music, but personally I can detect more differences with acoustic music to the real instruments and voice is easy to compare to the real singers. There are also very good recordings to use.

In electronic music, it's more difficult because everything is synthesized and processed, I don't know if the nuances I'm hearing is an effect used in the original track I just noticed or my gear doing a bad job.
 
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Feb 9, 2019 at 10:38 PM Post #1,708 of 3,711
Hey Merlin- Great News! I fixed the solder botching and the Opa2107s sound great!

I’ll probably have to stick to ChipQuik “handicap” until I get better at desoldering. So damn expensive though (like a great opa amp expensive)

What I learned:

Damn good equipment makes all the difference! I need some good electronic tweezers and desoldering pump gun to remove excess solder from the board. I’m eventually going to get some Hakko Iron.

I had to raise the temperature to 232 Celsius (425 F) to the excess solder off the board (what a pain in butt) and lots of explicits later voila it worked. The chips are a bit off center (not by much) but they make the connection.

The sound of Opa2107 2x is very analog and as the old cliche of rolling goes “it really opened up the sound”. Like I was telling you earlier I like a mix of analog and digital clean. So I was wondering if you could mix the mono channels with one being a Opa2107 and maybe AD8620 or AD8599. Not sure what it would sound like or if it would work?! It would be pretty rad to have the contrast in a binaural experience or hybrid differiatial blended equilibrium. Ha!

A bit of a sidetrack as you said I did watch “how to solder” videos on YouTube and Burson had one in which they soldered soic8 to Dip8 adapter. I’ve tried EVERYTHING to figure out the name of that Adapter and NO luck! Ugh, would love to replace the Soic for a Dip8 to make my experiments easier on the balanced 2.5mm opa amp of the Zishan.

The Zishan PCB Quality Blows! It’s plastic! The fake Op275 was creating digital distortions in my opinion that’s why I wanted to change it! Waiting/Hoping for The “Ivan” Zishan PCB board schemed with a components list to eventually make its way on this thread. One can always wish right


I was trying to say pitch(=frequency) as like the note or voice shouldn't sound higher freq (thinner), or lower freq than the original.
For example when listening to voice, if it lacks the mids low freq. (the body), the whole voice will sound thinner than the original, because the bass part is missing.

I also like electronic music, but personally I can detect more differences with acoustic music to the real instruments and voice is easy to compare to the real singers. There are also very good recordings to use.

In electronic music, it's more difficult because everything is synthesized and processed, I don't know if the nuances I'm hearing is an effect used in the original track I just noticed or my gear doing a bad job.[/QUOTE]
 
Feb 10, 2019 at 9:23 AM Post #1,709 of 3,711
Yes, good equipment is better and makes a difference, but sometimes we can save some bucks cutting some corners.

I'm using this ST-15 tweezer to hold the SMDs I solder:
(I think there is also this model with "antistatic" paint in the handle)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New...urved-Make-Up-Nippers-M03480/32799062397.html
I also got some ceramic tweezers but their tips are too big and lack grip, so I only use the above one.

To remove the excess solder from the PCB pads after you desolder something, use solder wick / desoldering braid.

The low temperature solder is very expensive, so I never tried it, consider buying a cheap hot air station, take some time to search the reviews in youtube.
Some tasks are easy with the right tools and a nightmare without them.
Hot air solder station is the way to go when doing SMDs, it doesn't damage the PCB.

Before I had the hot air, I built a custom iron tip to desolder soic8 opamps, it worked well, but the hot air is better and I don't use it now. I rounded the corners before I used it, these are early photos and don't show the round corners.
tip1.jpgtip2.jpg

I think the different mono experience in each ear, could mess your brain perception of sound and sound location.
What you can do is use the a different opamp sound type in the dip8 socket, so you can have different opamps adding character to the sound in the 3.5 output.

See if these are the adapters you are looking for, I never used one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-DIP8...pcb-1-27mm-PCB-converter-300mil-/172515912391
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-DIP8...ket-pcb-1-27mm-converter-300mil-/183292542706
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Adapter-Re...amp-SOP8-package-by-DIP8-AD8610-/361490134147
http://www.sonicimagerylabs.com/products/Model1114A_adapter.html
I think using the dip8 socket soldered to the PCB will make too much force in the PCB pads, so maybe it's better to use the vertical socket model and remove the dip8 socket before changing the opamp.
 
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Feb 10, 2019 at 10:32 AM Post #1,710 of 3,711
Just research what the heck a “hot air” soldering station is- makes sense that it would exist but why isn’t it a popular use since it also makes since that you don’t have to touch the board.

Yea I never thought about the space and balance in your hearing sense. It make total sense. Haha, after I did write that I did think of using the 3.5mm but I guess I’m just fixated on “balance” haha

Is there ANY advantages of replacing the 2.5 to a 5.5 balanced or is there such a thing as a balanced 3.5 that you can install in the Zishan w/o reconfiguring the circuit board?

****

Ugh you are telllng me about budgeting! It becomes an additions once you catch the “tickeking” bug.

I did order a AD712 and a Muse8920 for the 3.5mm so it could be a nice blend. I really, really love the Opa2107 sound. I’m still glowing over it!

The AD712 I know is legit cuz I ordered it from Arrow but the MUSE8920 I ordered from AliExpress (I’m not sure about being authentic!)

I have the Opa 1622 mods from AliExpress pictured in Ivan’s Zishan. They are fantastic. They are great driving Amps with lots of power and clarity not as Analog but it blends really well with ones that are! Highly Rec’em

I did think about trying to make a “wheel” type for the button à la IPod. Those buttons drive me nuts! In fact the entire prompt situation is so damn annoying (and I know I’m not the only one). Some Zishan Users talk about ol’ School “charm”- screw that.

I love to see someone develop a Raspberry Pi/Andriaino(sp??) with better ARM version preferably with touchscreen. Haha.

A portable Dual Ak4497Eq with two independent Mono channels would be an insane achievement. I’d love someone stick to it Ashen & Kernell 2K version sounding better for $300 tops.

Yea, I hear you on the cutting corners part and it’s fun to maneuver your cart of upgrades with a budget in mind. AliExpress has got the best deals but it’s also a gamble and takes a loooong a** time to get to it’s destination!! My instant gratification fix gives me withdrawal symptoms with every order. Yea it can be an expense hobby but you know what it’s sure beats pissing it away on booze or worse, right!

Ugh, I got slammed with ”tarrifs” with 20% increase ordering products designed in America & Made in ”Jina”! At least with a VAT in Europe that goes towards society not just an added tax to the consumer. It’s this kind of stupidity you deal with here on a daily basis!

Thanks for your (experienced) feedback. Really helps accelerate my learning curve and EXACTLY what the internet is great for! You’re very kind to give me sound advice and taking the time with your thoughtful input!

Any cheap hot air solder stations you recommend??!



Yes, good equipment is better and makes a difference, but sometimes we can save some bucks cutting some corners.

I'm using this ST-15 tweezer to hold the SMDs I solder:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New...urved-Make-Up-Nippers-M03480/32799062397.html
I also got some ceramic tweezers but their tips are too big and lack grip, so I only use the above one.

To remove the excess solder from the PCB pads after you desolder something, use solder wick / desoldering braid.

The low temperature solder is very expensive, so I never tried it, consider buying a cheap hot air station, take some time to search the reviews in youtube.
Some tasks are easy with the right tools and a nightmare without them.
Hot air solder station is the way to go when doing SMDs, it doesn't damage the PCB.

Before I had the hot air, I built a custom iron tip to desolder soic8 opamps, it worked well, but the hot air is better and I don't use it now. I rounded the corners before I used it, these are early photos and don't show the round corners.

I think the different mono experience in each ear, could mess your brain perception of sound and sound location.
What you can do is use the a different opamp sound type in the dip8 socket, so you can have different opamps adding character to the sound in the 3.5 output.

See if these are the adapters you are looking for, I never used one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-DIP8...pcb-1-27mm-PCB-converter-300mil-/172515912391
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-DIP8...ket-pcb-1-27mm-converter-300mil-/183292542706
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Adapter-Re...amp-SOP8-package-by-DIP8-AD8610-/361490134147
http://www.sonicimagerylabs.com/products/Model1114A_adapter.html
I think using the dip8 socket soldered to the PCB will make too much force in the PCB pads, so maybe it's better to use the vertical socket model and remove the dip8 socket before changing the opamp.[/QUOTE]
 

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