The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.
Feb 8, 2024 at 1:09 AM Post #80,911 of 88,242
I was in a WhatsApp group where @Sajid Amit said that portables are moving towards transportables. It was ingenious because I realised this after purchasing the Onix Mystic XP1.

Therefore, as a seasoned audiophile he is focussing on listening to IEMs from his desktop at home, which is something I have been doing for the past few days and thinking that it is so much better. The headspace, dynamics, darker background etc are just phenomenal.

I had been eagerly wanting to buy the IBasso D16 + PB5 stack and decided against it on the spot.

I truly feel that either something is portable or a desktop, transportable is not the fine line in between but much rather an expense, which does not seem worth its while.

I can get a custom made Tube Amp in India for $800, which "could' actually be a lot better than PB5.

Denafrips / Musician / Ladder / Gustard R2R DAC at a similar price of D16 would "probably" perform a lot better.

Any comment for or against this?
The Chord Hugo and Hugo 2 have been two of the most popular sources for just about a decade now. I remember when transportable tube amps like the Woo Audio WA8 Eclipse and the ALO Audio CDM were all the rage too. So, this form factor isn’t anything new. I think, with the recent surge in power-hungry IEMs, we’re seeing these sorts of devices become solidly viable again. I think it’s a great form factor if you like sitting down at cafes or listening to music on long train/plane rides.

Personally, the older I’ve gotten, the more I’ve prioritized convenience - almost as much as sound - when I’m on the go. I went from lugging ‘round an AK70 + Chord Mojo stack, to now just carrying around AirPods and my iPhone. The R8ii I just got, for example, is like the limit of how big I want my devices to be.

So I have a random philisophical question:,,,I notice with my desktop, which has phenomenal clarity and resolution, that in the begining I couldn't wrap my head around the sheer massive amount of information bieng presented to my brain. i mean, i could focus on the bass, or the mids, or the treble, but I couln't "hear" it all at once as one coherent presentation...over the months, I now realize that I can Totally hear the whole spectrum at once. Its no big deal. So the question, besides the obvious "Brain burn in" is, Does the brain build new neuropathways in order to "hear" the full spectrum of the sound? :)And I'm sorry for everything, I'm drunk... :)
That comes from experience and mood, I reckon. If you’ve heard a chain a number of times, you’re bound to become less overwhelmed by it eventually. It also depends on what mood you’re in when you’re listening. There are days when I wake up, and I can’t listen to a thing. And, there are times when my brain’s inexplicably routed all of its power to my ears for the day. :D
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 1:32 AM Post #80,912 of 88,242
Personally, the older I’ve gotten, the more I’ve prioritized convenience - almost as much as sound - when I’m on the go. I went from lugging ‘round an AK70 + Chord Mojo stack, to now just carrying around AirPods and my iPhone. The R8ii I just got, for example, is like the limit of how big I want my devices to be.

I think the idea of portable and transportable depends on everyone's situation. In the same way, slings/bags are very common in countries were they use public transportation more. If I was sitting on public transportation every day, I would definitely opt for something smaller and light weight such as a LP6 or WM1AM2. However, if I spend the majority of my time at home and go on vacation 4x a year, I wouldn't mind packing a n30le with me.

Recent reviews and your comment does make me curious what a R8ii sounds like =)
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 1:38 AM Post #80,913 of 88,242
For those with BSEP on Z1r (@HiFiHawaii808), how are the ergonomics vs stock?
 
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Feb 8, 2024 at 2:04 AM Post #80,914 of 88,242
Just want to throw out there that I'm listening to a FatFreq Scarlet Mini, and I now know what they/you/whoever means by bass cannons...i have Xe6 and thought I had bass cannons. Turns out I was wrong.
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 2:30 AM Post #80,915 of 88,242
Just want to throw out there that I'm listening to a FatFreq Scarlet Mini, and I now know what they/you/whoever means by bass cannons...i have Xe6 and thought I had bass cannons. Turns out I was wrong.
Ha ha, I had a taste of Scarlet mini recently myself for a couple weeks, and I think I’ve got to turn in my Bassheads Club membership card, because I just couldn’t handle it. The novelty was great for maybe 10 minutes or so, but after that I found it a bit tedious and unnecessarily overdone sub bass.

I found Maestro Mini to be much more agreeable, and something I might consider if 7hz Legato didn’t exist at 1/5 the price. 🤷‍♂️
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 2:32 AM Post #80,916 of 88,242
Ha ha, I had a taste of Scarlet mini recently myself for a couple weeks, and I think I’ve got to turn in my Bassheads Club membership card, because I just couldn’t handle it. The novelty was great for maybe 10 minutes or so, but after that I found it a bit tedious and unnecessarily overdone sub bass.

I found Maestro Mini to be much more agreeable, and something I might consider if 7hz Legato didn’t exist at 1/5 the price. 🤷‍♂️
Hey, Scarlet, what did you do with my treble!?
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 2:41 AM Post #80,917 of 88,242
Have the Quest 3 and can play for 2-3 hours at a time no problem (when there is no jank going on, which there is sometimes a lot)
We are very close to true mass-market appeal with these devices, the lenses are a quantum leap ahead compared to the Quest 2, where I got sick very fast.

What kind of jank is happening on the Quest 3?

I don't get sick with the Quest 2, fortunately. But it gets tiring and pre-headachy after an hour. Yeah I assume the much higher quality Q3 lenses could help with that. That said I'm very happy with the Q2, still, and may wait for the Q4.
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 3:41 AM Post #80,918 of 88,242
Please allow me to weigh in on transportable systems. I own a number of sources for multiple use case scenarios, there isn't a single device that covers them all perfectly:

A&K SR35 - light, genuinely pocketable DAP for travel.
Cayin RU7 - ideal for watching videos through a laptop.
Hiby R6P2 / Mass Kobo 475 - much higher levels of performance, and can be used in any room.



Some hobbyists imagine throwing the maximum amount they can afford at a DAP will be the best solution for all circumstances - and much as I'm hugely impressed by say the Cayin N30LE, a source like that comes with drawbacks:

• The N30LE is 650g which is a lot to pick up with one hand. My RP62 + 475 combo weights 725g, but I only ever need to lift the 280 grams of the R6P2 to change songs. I can also detach the R6P2 from the amp anytime for something lighter to carry. It won't sound as good without the amp, but for a 280g device (middleweight for modern DAPs) is still impressive.

• Another factor is price. New, an N30LE is USD $5k to have tied up in one device. Whereas I split my investment between the R6P2 & 475, and so don't have to pay another $5k to upgrade both at once, either can be upgraded independently at different times.

• Third, flexibility. Separating your DAC from your amp is actually a really good thing in some ways, it gives you greater means to tweak your system because even interconnects let you bend the sound in different directions, and anyone who's been in the hobby a long time understands Synergy Is King.



If you haven't owned a portable amp you may wonder why they're worth bothering with, wouldn't an N30LE be all you need if you don't mind dealing with the drawbacks? By all means yes if you demand the convenience of a one box solution & don't mind carrying a heavy brick, an N30LE or 320MAX may well be your source endgame.

If you want to push performance even further... yes that's possible. Those two DAPs do not represent the last word in IEM performance simply because they're heavy and expensive, you can get even better sound by adding a high-end portable amp to either of them.

Perhaps because in my experience it's the built-in amp rather than the DAC stage in most DAPs that has a larger effect on what we end up hearing, though manufacturers encourage us to think otherwise by focusing their product marketing around the latest DAC chip. For them it's probably a easier to generate interest by spruiking the specs of the latest AKM chip, rather than say explaining how they implemented a different amp topography with discrete components rather than op-amps.



The elephant in the room is desktop DACs & amps. If you're going to spend money on a separate amp and be forced to use an extra cable, wouldn't you get better performance and value using desktop equipment? The answer to both is yes, with caveats.

With desktop gear you lose the flexibility of where you can listen. Generally the more you spend the heavier items become, really high-end amps in particular can be super heavy and a real pain to move. So you end up being chained to a desk, which may be fine if you work from home & spend hours listening at the same location each day.

Noise floor is an issue with desktop amps though, as expensive ones are usually designed with headphones in mind. Potentially not an issue with IEMs that require lots of power like Subtonic Storm & Elysian Annihilator, but with others background hiss may be annoyingly loud & distracting - potentially introducing a new selection criteria for your future IEM purchases if you've already invested a lot in a desktop amp you want to pair them with.

Desktop DACs & sources work fine with IEMs, the issue there is most require XLR or RCA interconnects so you're stepping into a different world not directly compatible with your portable gear unless you invest in adapters or perhaps custom-built cables.



If ultimate performance is your goal then desktop gear is objectively the way to go, though then you may start to wonder if headphones make more sense given they can scale even more with expensive ancillary equipment.

Which is why some of us feel transportable IEM systems are an ideal tradeoff between portability & performance. You get superb sound in a fairly small, somewhat affordable package you can use anywhere. More performance or more portability is possible, but then you're sacrificing one for the other.

Apologies for the long post but it's a fairly in-depth subject. Ultimately I don't think there's any wrong way of listening, even IEMs used direct from your phone is fine if you're content - the great thing about our hobby is gives us the flexibility to listen the way we want.

Great points Nick. Agree with you that it is a deep topic with lots of moving parts. As someone coming up on 7 months of using external amps, I thought I would chime in. For me it boils down to two main main reasons:

1) SQ upgrades

Focusing on just the sound (not use case), during my dap rolling journey There's been a few stand out daps from my experience such as RS8, N30, DX320. What I realized those daps had in common was a superior amp section vs daps vs more portable daps like SP3K.

IMG_1999.jpeg


Compared to SP3K, some notable improvements were the bigger staging (RS8s depth, N30s holography, DX320s width), increased dynamics, transient density and extension. Each amp however of course adds its own flavour tilted towards different areas.

IMG_2003.jpeg


By adding Mass Kobo to R6P2, I found the combined technicalities of XE6 to reach beyond that summit fi level that I could get from all in 1 daps. The improvements by adding this external dap far exceeded dap rolling, cables and ICs respectively. To the point where I would choose an upper mid fi iem externally amped over a summit fi iem off a weak amp section dap (i.e. Storm). This of course depends on if that mid fi iem could scale. An example of an iem where amping wouldn't be necessarily is an iem like Fei Wan that abnormally scales down well. I have found that generally most iems do, especially if they contain ESTs or DDs.

2) Use case

This part of course is subject to each individual. For me most of my listening outside of my house: train commutes (sit downs), listening at my work office or at a lounge. This eliminates stationary desktop dac / amps. Headphones were mentioned earlier. While I appreciate them, I just prefer iems sound presentation and wearability.

Side on on desktop amps: While this doesnt suit my use case, it would be interesting to get more impressions. Here's a few trials I had during CJ Socal:

IMG_2004.jpeg

DCs Lina stack: With how large the set up was (as a portable stack user) I was surprised with how underwhelmed I was. It had that velvety agreeable tonality but didn't synergize well with XE6 giving it an overly smooth sound.

IMG_2002.jpeg

Mass Kobo 465: This had a different tonality than 475 sounding earthier (+mid bass), more structure in how instruments were layered. Compared to Storm, XE6 seemed to benefit less. I preferred 475s leaner more U shaped sound over 465 for XE6.
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 4:36 AM Post #80,919 of 88,242
Is that a 394ii beside the 465? Did you have a listen Nate?
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 5:17 AM Post #80,920 of 88,242
The Chord Hugo and Hugo 2 have been two of the most popular sources for just about a decade now.
I no longer have IEMs with me, I do have a Hugo 2 though, how does it stack up as a amp for a flagship IEM were I to go down that rabbit-hole again? Being able to not worry about purchasing a DAP makes the idea of buying a decent IEM again more appealing, so long as the Hugo 2 is excellent in this regard.

I guess what I would like to know specifically, in terms of sound, would I be needing to buy a SP3000 (or similar) or would the Hugo 2 suffice?
 
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Feb 8, 2024 at 5:32 AM Post #80,921 of 88,242
Feb 8, 2024 at 6:55 AM Post #80,922 of 88,242
Hey, Scarlet, what did you do with my treble!?
To be honest, despite being a Basshead, I couldn't get myself to like the Maestro Mini. FATfreq told me that they have made changes to the mids with Scarlett Mini, but it was still not enough to convince me.

I have asked from seasoned forum members about Trifecta vs Grand Maestro but after considering all the parameters, I would go with the former.

Tuning switches are not my cup of tea. I seriously feel that one IEM should present one signature. I don't want to get a combo meal....

Enough ranting...I wish FATfreq well..
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 7:13 AM Post #80,923 of 88,242
If I’m spending time outside I want as minimal gear as possible. I somewhat miss the days where I could have a simple iPhone, 3.5 jack and IEMs.

With the current generation of dongles , they are far more pocketable vs the likes of a Shanling M0, A&K SR25, or other small DAPs and it’s yet another device that I have to sync/charge/etc. The sound quality upgrade isn’t great enough to bother with that.

That said I might bother with a SP3000, RS8, 320Max for the sake of transportability and an all in one solution but those are not pocketable at all! And while I like sound, I’m one of the lazy people that can’t be bothered to design a whole chain. If money isn’t an object I’d just pick up a Mola Mola Makua , and have an all in one solution on the spot for headphones and IEMs to try out on my desk. A high end DAP I can deal with for the use case though.
Good point, I must say I am using iFi Audio Go Pod with CIEMs more and more, Go Blu is light but this is just a tad more convenient that I use it more.

My feeling is dongles are a hassle in terms of wiring, they are not that convenient at least with a phone (but a computer at the office, why not) if I go down that route I'll probably pick something like Questyle CMA18P (one item I am considering for vacations when I don't want to risk a DAP) which can be magsafed to my iPhone :)
 
Feb 8, 2024 at 7:39 AM Post #80,925 of 88,242
What kind of jank is happening on the Quest 3?

I don't get sick with the Quest 2, fortunately. But it gets tiring and pre-headachy after an hour. Yeah I assume the much higher quality Q3 lenses could help with that. That said I'm very happy with the Q2, still, and may wait for the Q4.
I lose tracking quite often with one of the pro controllers and sometimes the entire image spins around no matter which controllers I use, because it just loses tracking altogether. There are many games that have bugs and glitches, the lack of funding (and spending) in the VR space is very noticable. Overall it works fine, but it's no comparison to, let's say, a PS5.

And I still think Meta desperately needs to change their UX/UI design team and focus on a environmental design philosophy, but that's an entire other thing.
 

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