The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.

Nov 23, 2021 at 12:05 AM Post #4,696 of 107,433
I've been contemplating whether or not to comment on this however we are in a philosophical discussion thread and this is fundamentally a philosophical topic (and an interesting & fruitful one at that) so I'll do my best to address it respectfully.

I often draw connections between the experience of listening to music & gear and that of eating food-- both are forms of sensory indulgence and both tend to elicit emotional connections & reactions (often strong ones) from people. People experience music as it is presented through gear and they experience food as it is presented through a chef or a cook. Just as a chef can prepare and flavor food to make it appetizing and beautiful to people so can a piece of gear color or tweak music so that it elicits a greater or lesser degree of analytic or emotional character. True neutrality I suspect would sound very similar to everyone's ears and while some people do seek after this type of signature as @blotmouse rightly observed the other day it seems like it might be the sonic equivalent of a rice cake. As such most people I think prefer to have some sort of coloration-- even minor-- in their sound. This forms the basis of everyone's differing tastes as not only do different forms of music benefit from distinct types of tuning and coloration, but everyone has different sensitivities, rooted in both innate and learned factors, that influence how they hear and perceive things.

While there are many different, probably limitless, tuning profiles out there one of the most significant areas of contention I notice stems from how people like their mid-bass & upper mids. Some people prefer more forwardness in the upper mids and readily write off even a minor mid-bass emphasis as "muddy". Alternately there are a good number of very well regarded IEMs out there that for me are way overloaded in the upper mids and weak in the mid-bass. In fact this is so prevalent that it's generally the first thing I look for in graphs & impressions when I'm trying to figure out if an IEM will be for me or not. I often colloquially refer to these different tuning profiles as, respectively, "Eastern" & "Western". This is because much music popular in Asia seems to benefit from tuning that is skewed more towards the upper mids and the sort of music that, as you say, I was raised on tends to benefit more from a tuning skew towards lower mids and mid-bass. I use the terms "Eastern" & "Western" loosely though as this is by no means an absolute rule and I know there are people all over the world who prefer both kinds of tuning-- often with the same types of music. Just as everyone's perception of and sensitivity to how spicy a dish is will vary to some degree according to what they are used to so is it true imho that, in the realm of sound, people's perception of what is tolerable/fatiguing/ideal etc. will vary according to what they listen to and what they are used to. While I agree that simply saying "East" vs. "West" vastly and inaccurately simplifies the matter there is imho just enough positive correlation to make the the latent distinction it is aiming for interesting and important to take into account when trying to understand where someone might be coming from when communicating heir preferences and/or describing what they hear.



Indeed and many are after a more analytic or intellectual experience-- neither is right nor wrong they're just two different approaches.
I enjoy reading your observations, very well thought through. Your points go mainly to tonality, which I completely agree is so subjective that arguing about it is akin to arguing over politics, art or religion. It's heckuva fun though!

What's less defensible for me is when someone misrepresents factors that are more or less universal, or at least can be 'graded' fairly accurately by anyone doing a proper AB or even blind test. Stuff like resolution, speed, clarity, imaging. We all hear differently, but not enough that the differences will markedly change how we perceive these technical elements.

Tonality, timbre, tonal balance...that's the wild west.
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 12:25 AM Post #4,697 of 107,433
I know this probably sounds trite, but to me the holy grail in this hobby is realness. Not neutrality, not emotion. But does a guitar sound like a guitar? Does a guitar played in a 10x10' room sound like a guitar played in a 10x10' room? We've all heard instruments in real life, whether playing ourselves or at live shows or concerts. Recordings of instruments should sound like we know they sound in real life. To me that realness is composed of timbre and space (soundstage, imaging and separation). Since IEMs really aren't going to do space realistically given their form, I prioritize realness of timbre. Don't get me wrong, I prefer solid soundstage, imaging and separation over a claustrophobic mess -- but we're never going to get real realness there in IEM form. I think that's why I enjoy a good 200-300 dollar DD IEM like the Kato or 3DT over the more expensive BA and hybrid sets I've heard. The former do timbre better and the latter are still very far away from conveying realistic space, while having unrealistic timbre. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

It's different for electronic music, because we don't have that IRL reference point.
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 5:49 AM Post #4,698 of 107,433
Especially looking forward to this one. They're the one expensive-ish set of IEMs that are tempting me ATM. It would be awesome to hear your thoughts on the Pros before Dunu puts them on sale this Friday (I know I still owe you for your three-way comparison on the earbud thread!).

I listened for about two hours last night, switching between the two - I'll do the same again tonight. To my ears there is a marked improvement that absolutely justifies the $200 increase - I'm so impressed that I don't want to part with them in 7 days! Seriously debating buying a set now - these or Dark Sky.
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 8:35 AM Post #4,699 of 107,433
@Rockwell75 Man, the SR25 MKII sounded great! I tried them again today. I think if you already have the M8, it'd be better to opt for it than M6 Pro 21 for diversity. As I found the Pro 21 to be slightly similar yet slightly behind the M8 in terms of technicalities. The 21 though for its part offers a more neutral sound with less bass and narrower stage. Technically, the 21 competes well with the M8, especially in terms of resolution. They're both pretty close in that regard. Treble too sounded similar, but I felt on the 21 it was a tiny bit flatter and less exciting. The bigger difference for me was on the mids and bass, as the M8 possesses a voluminous bass and warmer thicker notes. The mids sounded equally clear on both, but on the M8 the separation was better due to its wider soundstage. Also the timbre was more organic natural on the M8, whereas on the 21 it sounded a bit more analytical and on the colder side. Although each note has pretty good weight and substance to it to avoid becoming too lean and dry
taken-1637639424837.jpg


Now, on the SR25 MKII, I think the sound can be categorised as slightly on the warmer side. It has a good amount of bass down low, and the tone was pretty lush rich and natural as the M8. The bass wasn't as big and boomy as the M8 though, and soundstage less wide. The soundstage going from the M8 to SR25 felt like listening a live performance outside, and on the latter it felt more like listening in a studio. It sounded more open and wide on the M8, whilst on the SR25 it sounded more intimate. That said, the SR25 didn't sound forward or anything. And the treble has plenty of air and details to it to avoid sounding congested. Very good solid black background too on the SR25, with even stabler less grainy imaging than the M8. Which consequently increased each note's definition, and attaining clarity more through it rather than lifting its treble. Very smooth upper end, and despite the treble being a bit more energetic than the M8, the SR25 remains delicate in its attack and decay. Impressively done by AK. @Deezel177 I think you might like this one, as it sounded richer more lush and smoother than the SE180, and closer to the R01 in its warmer tone. If you're still looking for an AK player that is

Also got to try the UE6Pro, an old gem sporting 2DD + 1BA. I think this is the first time I found something that sounds close to the AONIC4. Very good bass, and lush warm mids. And it costs $699 too. Very tempted to order one. I think they offer universals as well
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Double DDs for mids and lows. Fun stuff :)
 
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Nov 23, 2021 at 9:02 AM Post #4,700 of 107,433
@Rockwell75 Man, the SR25 MKII sounded great! I tried them again today. I think if you already have the M8, it'd be better to opt for it than M6 Pro 21 for diversity. As I found the Pro 21 to be slightly similar yet slightly behind the M8 in terms of technicalities. The 21 though for its part offers a more neutral sound with less bass and narrower stage. Technically, the 21 competes well with the M8, especially in terms of resolution. They're both pretty close in that regard. Treble too sounded similar, but I felt on the 21 it was a tiny bit flatter and less exciting. The bigger difference for me was on the mids and bass, as the M8 possesses a voluminous bass and warmer thicker notes. The mids sounded equally clear on both, but on the M8 the separation was better due to its wider soundstage. Also the timbre was more organic natural on the M8, whereas on the 21 it sounded a bit more analytical and on the colder side. Although each note has pretty good weight and substance to it to avoid becoming too lean and dry
taken-1637639424837.jpg


Now, on the SR25 MKII, I think the sound can be categorised as slightly on the warmer side. It has a good amount of bass down low, and the tone was pretty lush rich and natural as the M8. The bass wasn't as big and boomy as the M8 though, and soundstage less wide. The soundstage going from the M8 to SR25 felt like listening a live performance outside, and on the latter it felt more like listening in a studio. It sounded more open and wide on the M8, whilst on the SR25 it sounded more intimate. That said, the SR25 didn't sound forward or anything. And the treble has plenty of air and details to it to avoid sounding congested.

Great to hear! Variety was one of the deciding factors for sure. Your impressions have me excited to hear mine, which I should have by tomorrow. (I see it's in your sig too...nice!)

I enjoy reading your observations, very well thought through. Your points go mainly to tonality, which I completely agree is so subjective that arguing about it is akin to arguing over politics, art or religion. It's heckuva fun though!

Cheers man thank-you! And comparing to tonal preferences to one's religion & politics is spot on...Lord knows this hobby is practically a religion to many of us here.

What's less defensible for me is when someone misrepresents factors that are more or less universal, or at least can be 'graded' fairly accurately by anyone doing a proper AB or even blind test. Stuff like resolution, speed, clarity, imaging. We all hear differently, but not enough that the differences will markedly change how we perceive these technical elements.

True. That said even still people talking about fairly objective matters-- like resolution and detail-- often veers into the the subjective. "Such and such IEM is superior because it has better resolution" in particular is something I hear a lot and used to be influenced by-- I think at some point that was considered the holy grail which is why many of the most expensive IEMs are said to earn their price tags because of their resolution and technicalities. One of the biggest "a ha" moments for me in this hobby was realizing that insane resolution and technical chops did not necessarily translate to a more enjoyable/worthwhile listening experience to me if certain other basic factors (timbre, my preferred tonal balance) wasn't on point.

I know this probably sounds trite, but to me the holy grail in this hobby is realness. Not neutrality, not emotion. But does a guitar sound like a guitar? Does a guitar played in a 10x10' room sound like a guitar played in a 10x10' room? We've all heard instruments in real life, whether playing ourselves or at live shows or concerts. Recordings of instruments should sound like we know they sound in real life. To me that realness is composed of timbre and space (soundstage, imaging and separation). Since IEMs really aren't going to do space realistically given their form, I prioritize realness of timbre. Don't get me wrong, I prefer solid soundstage, imaging and separation over a claustrophobic mess -- but we're never going to get real realness there in IEM form. I think that's why I enjoy a good 200-300 dollar DD IEM like the Kato or 3DT over the more expensive BA and hybrid sets I've heard. The former do timbre better and the latter are still very far away from conveying realistic space, while having unrealistic timbre. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

Not trite at all. In all honesty I'm not sure I could really identify one single factor that matters to me above all. For me, again with the food comparisons, and to refer to a point I read in a Kato review somewhere, listening to an IEM for the first time is like taking a bite into a meal, or sipping a glass of wine-- I'll know instantly if love it or not but being able to quantify exactly why I love it is a different matter altogether. The best I can gather is that what I'm after is a certain type of balance of factors that manifest to me in the right way and lead to a certain type of enjoyment-- Elysium, Dorado, Duo, Isabellae-- all of these IEMs put me into a happy trance on my first session listening to them and yet no two of them are anything alike. One of the great adventures inherent in this hobby is coming to terms with exactly what it is I like & why and then being able to express it in words. I'm definitely in the camp who defaults more towards things like emotional connection, timbre over technicalities, lower mids over upper etc., but beyond that it's hard to say. It's a fun learning journey.


It's different for electronic music, because we don't have that IRL reference point.

It's different but not that different. My musical tastes are skewed towards electronic and I know when a TR808 bassline is conveyed properly, or a nice analogue synth sounds right etc.
 
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Nov 23, 2021 at 9:26 AM Post #4,701 of 107,433
True. That said even still people talking about fairly objective matters-- like resolution and detail-- often veers into the the subjective. "Such and such IEM is superior because it has better resolution" in particular is something I hear a lot and used to be influenced by-- I think at some point that was considered the holy grail which is why many of the most expensive IEMs are said to earn their price tags because of their resolution and technicalities. One of the biggest "a ha" moments for me in this hobby was realizing that insane resolution and technical chops did not necessarily translate to a more enjoyable/worthwhile listening experience to me if certain other basic factors (timbre, my preferred tonal balance) wasn't on point.
Yep, another keen observation. My point though was that these 'objective' measures should be objectively graded. So saying IEM A is more resolving than IEM B using the same source and music is more useful to me than IEM A is better than IEM B because it's more resolving. The subjective opinion of resolution is just that, subjective, but the fact that one is more resolving than the other is plain fact. Which circles back to my headshake over Crin's technical rating for EVO (and Traillii for that matter), because it smacks more of a subjective take on technicalities than anything factual.

And for the record I totally agree that tonality speaks more to me than technicalities, although at or beyond a certain point I personally want the best of both worlds. I wouldn't pay $3K for a technically deficient or even average IEM, for example, but at $1K that's expected (or at least more acceptable).
 
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Nov 23, 2021 at 9:48 AM Post #4,702 of 107,433
Be interesting to get a SR25 vs SR25 MKII comp, given the current significant price difference. I've always thought AK was overpriced, but I did once get an AK Jr when it went on sale it it sounded nice. Not too much competition these days in above entry level small + good battery DAP space.
 
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Nov 23, 2021 at 10:25 AM Post #4,703 of 107,433
Be interesting to get a SR25 vs SR25 MKII comp, given the current significant price difference. I've always thought AK was overpriced, but I did once get an AK Jr when it went on sale it it sounded nice. Not too much competition these days in above entry level small + good battery DAP space.

@ranfan is the only one I know who's heard both. My local retailer is sold out of the MK1s so that was a moot point for me...but the promise of more power, battery life approaching Sony levels, a nice compact player, stellar AK sound, a 4.4 connection and to top it all off a 12% discount...well that was too much for me to resist :)

Also, a nice atmospheric bassy tune:



Sounds great on the Duo.
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 10:33 AM Post #4,705 of 107,433
I know this probably sounds trite, but to me the holy grail in this hobby is realness. Not neutrality, not emotion. But does a guitar sound like a guitar? Does a guitar played in a 10x10' room sound like a guitar played in a 10x10' room? We've all heard instruments in real life, whether playing ourselves or at live shows or concerts. Recordings of instruments should sound like we know they sound in real life. To me that realness is composed of timbre and space (soundstage, imaging and separation). Since IEMs really aren't going to do space realistically given their form, I prioritize realness of timbre. Don't get me wrong, I prefer solid soundstage, imaging and separation over a claustrophobic mess -- but we're never going to get real realness there in IEM form. I think that's why I enjoy a good 200-300 dollar DD IEM like the Kato or 3DT over the more expensive BA and hybrid sets I've heard. The former do timbre better and the latter are still very far away from conveying realistic space, while having unrealistic timbre. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

It's different for electronic music, because we don't have that IRL reference point.
I usually listen to a couple of songs with Chet Baker and or Bill Evans to determine an IEM's tone. I played trumpet and piano as a youngster and their sound is ingrained in my head. I can almost instantly tell if the tone is not right listening to a moment or two of a song. Sometimes, with my better IEMs, I can close my eyes and I am in the room live with the musicians. That's when you know that you have a keeper.
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 10:37 AM Post #4,706 of 107,433
Glowing review of the Zen Pro on SBAF...

I certainly don't want to part with my tour unit!

I'll share more impressions later but as I mentioned previously, this to me is a massive upgrade on the Zen. I've 6 x A4 pages of track comparison notes from last night that I want to condense to an overall view on why.
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 10:38 AM Post #4,707 of 107,433
I know this probably sounds trite, but to me the holy grail in this hobby is realness. Not neutrality, not emotion. But does a guitar sound like a guitar? Does a guitar played in a 10x10' room sound like a guitar played in a 10x10' room? We've all heard instruments in real life, whether playing ourselves or at live shows or concerts. Recordings of instruments should sound like we know they sound in real life. To me that realness is composed of timbre and space (soundstage, imaging and separation). Since IEMs really aren't going to do space realistically given their form, I prioritize realness of timbre. Don't get me wrong, I prefer solid soundstage, imaging and separation over a claustrophobic mess -- but we're never going to get real realness there in IEM form. I think that's why I enjoy a good 200-300 dollar DD IEM like the Kato or 3DT over the more expensive BA and hybrid sets I've heard. The former do timbre better and the latter are still very far away from conveying realistic space, while having unrealistic timbre. IMHO, YMMV, etc.

It's different for electronic music, because we don't have that IRL reference point.
But that would depend on what part of "realness" you focus on, right? I could see people search for tonal realness, while others look for realness in dynamics, or rhythm, or timbre, or coherency, ...

Getting one of these correct is easy enough. And budget sets are doing great if they get one correct without screwing up the others. But I think it takes a lot of effort, money, and luck, to get everything right. And then still that "everything" is only for a handful of people, apparently.

drftr
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 10:40 AM Post #4,708 of 107,433
I usually listen to a couple of songs with Chet Baker and or Bill Evans to determine an IEM's tone. I played trumpet and piano as a youngster and their sound is ingrained in my head. I can almost instantly tell if the tone is not right listening to a moment or two of a song. Sometimes, with my better IEMs, I can close my eyes and I am in the room live with the musicians. That's when you know that you have a keeper.
I'm not a musician but I do know when something souds off. For me the physicality of instruments is one of the hardest things to reproduce well in an IEM, so when an IEM manages to simulate the 'kick' of a kick drum or the hard strike of a piano key or the metallic or nylon twinge of a string, that's special. But the hardest of all, for me, is realistically reproducing the human voice or, more to the point, it's immediately obvious when something is off with a vocal recording. Nothing takes me out of the music more than a proorly recorded or reproduced vocal. When that happens with an expensive IEM, and it's not the recording, it's a big problem.
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 10:40 AM Post #4,709 of 107,433
I listened for about two hours last night, switching between the two - I'll do the same again tonight. To my ears there is a marked improvement that absolutely justifies the $200 increase - I'm so impressed that I don't want to part with them in 7 days! Seriously debating buying a set now - these or Dark Sky.
However, the Zen goes for $490 now vs $900 for the Pro. I thought that was the main reason the question was posted right at this moment., but I could be wrong.

drftr
 
Nov 23, 2021 at 10:44 AM Post #4,710 of 107,433
However, the Zen goes for $490 now vs $900 for the Pro. I thought that was the main reason the question was posted right at this moment., but I could be wrong.

drftr

Ah so clearance price of the old, versus full price of the new - yes that is of course a bigger gap while the original Zen is sold through.
 

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