The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.

[Rockwell75]

The one thing I would say - you definitely missed out something with the Z1R and not trying it with the 1A and custom firmware. It’s epic. Definitely worth keeping the 1A just for that

I don't doubt it man! That said I prefer slightly warmer/organic players and my preference was always for the 1Z over the 1A (and the 1Z sounded epic with my Solaris and Andromeda 2020 for what that's worth). I never heard the Z1R with either the 1Z or 1Z unfortunately.

 

[fzman]

One thing that I like about BA bass is it's fast decay, even with such hefty mid bass slam that comes with Andro 2020 it never gets congested or sort of gives that vibrating feeling that is headache inducing if one listen at loud volumes. It's grand yet weightless and lightning quick at the same time.

NB: THe following post is NOT a criticism of the post I am quoting)

I am always curious about the term 'decay', and the whole fast vs. slow debate over BA vs DD drivers. The bass otes on a recording have a specific decay profile (I'll trade-mark that phrase right now lol) . IOW, there is a correct amount of decay. I do not care to have it shortened by the playback equipment, nor lengthened (what we call overhang). A note has a natural attack, bloom and decay. That's what I want. On a related note, I suppose 'fast bass' is for really busy peole who do not have time to listen to real-time bass! lol

 

[Nalin]

NB: THe following post is NOT a criticism of the post I am quoting)

I am always curious about the term 'decay', and the whole fast vs. slow debate over BA vs DD drivers. The bass otes on a recording have a specific decay profile (I'll trade-mark that phrase right now lol) . IOW, there is a correct amount of decay. I do not care to have it shortened by the playback equipment, nor lengthened (what we call overhang). A note has a natural attack, bloom and decay. That's what I want. On a related note, I suppose 'fast bass' is for really busy peole who do not have time to listen to real-time bass! lol

BA bass is easy on my ears, this is seen especially when listening to bass heavy tracks like EDM on loud listening levels. DD bass may sound more natural as we all have get accustomed to it from past few decades but BA bass has it's own advantages, decay is one of it.

 

[Tchoupitoulas]

**+Z1R =>** Peerless bass texture & extension

Did your mini shootout happen before you got your Dorado 2020? For Z1R bass to be better in these ways would be saying something!

 

[Rockwell75]

Did your mini shootout happen before you got your Dorado 2020? For Z1R bass to be better in these ways would be saying something!

I did...Dorado 2020 has the best mid-bass in the game imho but I would still give it to Z1R for sub-bass...both in terms of texture and its fathomless extension.

 

[SBranson]

Dorado arrived today thanks to @Rockwell75 ... I sent him my initial impressions but I'll share them here too..

"Alright... I got home and quickly opened them and tried about 1 min of a song on the ZX507.. Hania Rani playing her modern classical piano and when the bass came in I thought, oh oh.. I don't think I'm going to like these so much.. The piano sounded good but the bass was a bit wooly.. But 1 minute of a song with a bass that's pretty wooly on most of everything isn't enough... Took my daughter to her violin lesson, got home and had supper.....
So I just spent the better part of the last 40 mins listening with the M8... These are the strangest iems I've ever heard and they are completely seductive, and I mean seductive.. song after song, I couldn't stop listening. There's not only little things I had never heard before, not even with the Elysium, but there is a romance to the mids that is both full and warm but with an odd ring of clarity that kind of baffles me. I keep hearing this warmth and expect bleed or occlusion but there's also a crystal clarity coming through... The really deep bass is about the only weakness for me because the Bravado2 is cleaner and has a bit more extension but I should have my Bravado2 back tomorrow to confirm. It's just a little less defined and looser than I remember on some songs. I'll do a song by song analysis at some point.
I kept trying different songs and vocals are so delicately sweet, like honey.
Dire Straits' "Your Latest Trick" is pretty close to as good as I've ever heard the song with some details I've never noticed before.. I imagine they are there with the Elysium but they just come through because of the Dorado tuning.. gorgeous
I finished off with "The Maker" by Daniel Lanois as I compared the Elysium and the 3DT with that song and commented how good it sounded with the 3DT.. The fretless bass is weirdly in my head and pans a bit left to right.. not the best but Daniel's voice is as good as I've heard it. It's an intimate stage with some good spatial cues but some sounds are really up close like in this song.. The high hats though sound just perfect..
I decided to try the 3dt just to refresh my reference... it sounded well, not so good... Seriously, the romance is gone, the stage is back and seemingly unengaging and his voice is kind of thin and lifeless in comparison.
What a strange strange iem.. If an iem could embody the female principle it's the Dorado 2020.
I wondered if I could make a choice between the Dorado and the Bravado but they are so different.

I'll have to compare tomorrow against the Bravado2. The Bravado2 does (from memory) have "better" bass in terms of tightness and cleanliness but I think in comparison, the rest of the tuning is going to be vanilla, safe and missing that lure of the succubus."

When asked about what I meant by the female principle I wrote:

"
I think by female principle I am referencing a sense of the duality as in the relationship between Captain Kirk and the Green Woman dancing for him. teehee...
It's the Shakti, the action, to Shiva, the existence of being...
If the U12t is the baseline of existence, it is still unmoved.. The Dorado is the movement, the meaning behind the form, the idea put into action.. It's like a Tibetan Thangka. The U12t is the painting, the form of the art, the Dorado is how the form, which of itself is made of pigments on canvas or skin, is given meaning and movement in the ideas and feelings ..
The Captain Kirk/Green Woman is the more physical expression, in the seductive dance of procreation..

Maybe that's reading too much into it all but I've never had an iem give me these thoughts about it.. ha ha.."


-- I'll listen more this evening and get acclimated over the next couple days then try a bit of a write up with reference to a few specific songs. At the moment these aren't the combination of reference and beauty that the Elysium has but the Dorado's are just so alluring in some mysterious way that I haven't really reacted to in the same way with any iem.. I did try a Rolf Lislevand baroque album with lutes and other plucked instruments and they brought something very different than I have ever heard but it was not at all like the purity of the Elysium..

 

[Rockwell75]

Dorado arrived today thanks to @Rockwell75 ... I sent him my initial impressions but I'll share them here too..

"Alright... I got home and quickly opened them and tried about 1 min of a song on the ZX507.. Hania Rani playing her modern classical piano and when the bass came in I thought, oh oh.. I don't think I'm going to like these so much.. The piano sounded good but the bass was a bit wooly.. But 1 minute of a song with a bass that's pretty wooly on most of everything isn't enough... Took my daughter to her violin lesson, got home and had supper.....
So I just spent the better part of the last 40 mins listening with the M8... These are the strangest iems I've ever heard and they are completely seductive, and I mean seductive.. song after song, I couldn't stop listening. There's not only little things I had never heard before, not even with the Elysium, but there is a romance to the mids that is both full and warm but with an odd ring of clarity that kind of baffles me. I keep hearing this warmth and expect bleed or occlusion but there's also a crystal clarity coming through... The really deep bass is about the only weakness for me because the Bravado2 is cleaner and has a bit more extension but I should have my Bravado2 back tomorrow to confirm. It's just a little less defined and looser than I remember on some songs. I'll do a song by song analysis at some point.
I kept trying different songs and vocals are so delicately sweet, like honey.
Dire Straits' "Your Latest Trick" is pretty close to as good as I've ever heard the song with some details I've never noticed before.. I imagine they are there with the Elysium but they just come through because of the Dorado tuning.. gorgeous
I finished off with "The Maker" by Daniel Lanois as I compared the Elysium and the 3DT with that song and commented how good it sounded with the 3DT.. The fretless bass is weirdly in my head and pans a bit left to right.. not the best but Daniel's voice is as good as I've heard it. It's an intimate stage with some good spatial cues but some sounds are really up close like in this song.. The high hats though sound just perfect..
I decided to try the 3dt just to refresh my reference... it sounded well, not so good... Seriously, the romance is gone, the stage is back and seemingly unengaging and his voice is kind of thin and lifeless in comparison.
What a strange strange iem.. If an iem could embody the female principle it's the Dorado 2020.
I wondered if I could make a choice between the Dorado and the Bravado but they are so different.

I'll have to compare tomorrow against the Bravado2. The Bravado2 does (from memory) have "better" bass in terms of tightness and cleanliness but I think in comparison, the rest of the tuning is going to be vanilla, safe and missing that lure of the succubus."

When asked about what I meant by the female principle I wrote:

"
I think by female principle I am referencing a sense of the duality as in the relationship between Captain Kirk and the Green Woman dancing for him. teehee...
It's the Shakti, the action, to Shiva, the existence of being...
If the U12t is the baseline of existence, it is still unmoved.. The Dorado is the movement, the meaning behind the form, the idea put into action.. It's like a Tibetan Thangka. The U12t is the painting, the form of the art, the Dorado is how the form, which of itself is made of pigments on canvas or skin, is given meaning and movement in the ideas and feelings ..
The Captain Kirk/Green Woman is the more physical expression, in the seductive dance of procreation..

Maybe that's reading too much into it all but I've never had an iem give me these thoughts about it.. ha ha.."


-- I'll listen more this evening and get acclimated over the next couple days then try a bit of a write up with reference to a few specific songs. At the moment these aren't the combination of reference and beauty that the Elysium has but the Dorado's are just so alluring in some mysterious way that I haven't really reacted to in the same way with any iem.. I did try a Rolf Lislevand baroque album with lutes and other plucked instruments and they brought something very different than I have ever heard but it was not at all like the purity of the Elysium..

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Rockwell75]

Dorado arrived today thanks to @Rockwell75 ... I sent him my initial impressions but I'll share them here too..

"Alright... I got home and quickly opened them and tried about 1 min of a song on the ZX507.. Hania Rani playing her modern classical piano and when the bass came in I thought, oh oh.. I don't think I'm going to like these so much.. The piano sounded good but the bass was a bit wooly.. But 1 minute of a song with a bass that's pretty wooly on most of everything isn't enough... Took my daughter to her violin lesson, got home and had supper.....
So I just spent the better part of the last 40 mins listening with the M8... These are the strangest iems I've ever heard and they are completely seductive, and I mean seductive.. song after song, I couldn't stop listening. There's not only little things I had never heard before, not even with the Elysium, but there is a romance to the mids that is both full and warm but with an odd ring of clarity that kind of baffles me. I keep hearing this warmth and expect bleed or occlusion but there's also a crystal clarity coming through... The really deep bass is about the only weakness for me because the Bravado2 is cleaner and has a bit more extension but I should have my Bravado2 back tomorrow to confirm. It's just a little less defined and looser than I remember on some songs. I'll do a song by song analysis at some point.
I kept trying different songs and vocals are so delicately sweet, like honey.
Dire Straits' "Your Latest Trick" is pretty close to as good as I've ever heard the song with some details I've never noticed before.. I imagine they are there with the Elysium but they just come through because of the Dorado tuning.. gorgeous
I finished off with "The Maker" by Daniel Lanois as I compared the Elysium and the 3DT with that song and commented how good it sounded with the 3DT.. The fretless bass is weirdly in my head and pans a bit left to right.. not the best but Daniel's voice is as good as I've heard it. It's an intimate stage with some good spatial cues but some sounds are really up close like in this song.. The high hats though sound just perfect..
I decided to try the 3dt just to refresh my reference... it sounded well, not so good... Seriously, the romance is gone, the stage is back and seemingly unengaging and his voice is kind of thin and lifeless in comparison.
What a strange strange iem.. If an iem could embody the female principle it's the Dorado 2020.
I wondered if I could make a choice between the Dorado and the Bravado but they are so different.

I'll have to compare tomorrow against the Bravado2. The Bravado2 does (from memory) have "better" bass in terms of tightness and cleanliness but I think in comparison, the rest of the tuning is going to be vanilla, safe and missing that lure of the succubus."

When asked about what I meant by the female principle I wrote:

"
I think by female principle I am referencing a sense of the duality as in the relationship between Captain Kirk and the Green Woman dancing for him. teehee...
It's the Shakti, the action, to Shiva, the existence of being...
If the U12t is the baseline of existence, it is still unmoved.. The Dorado is the movement, the meaning behind the form, the idea put into action.. It's like a Tibetan Thangka. The U12t is the painting, the form of the art, the Dorado is how the form, which of itself is made of pigments on canvas or skin, is given meaning and movement in the ideas and feelings ..
The Captain Kirk/Green Woman is the more physical expression, in the seductive dance of procreation..

Maybe that's reading too much into it all but I've never had an iem give me these thoughts about it.. ha ha.."


-- I'll listen more this evening and get acclimated over the next couple days then try a bit of a write up with reference to a few specific songs. At the moment these aren't the combination of reference and beauty that the Elysium has but the Dorado's are just so alluring in some mysterious way that I haven't really reacted to in the same way with any iem.. I did try a Rolf Lislevand baroque album with lutes and other plucked instruments and they brought something very different than I have ever heard but it was not at all like the purity of the Elysium..

Totally with you on the seductiveness and the alluring clarity. I think this is a consequence of the acoustic properties of the ceramic shells. IMHO CFA's ceramic shells and tuning chambers are one of the more notable innovations in IEMs in the last few years.

Also I'm really happy to hear the Dorado is sufficiently different than the Bravado to justify owning both...I really want to have an EE IEM in my collection and the Bravado MKii is seeming like the best contender.

 

[Tristy]

Dorado arrived today thanks to @Rockwell75 ... I sent him my initial impressions but I'll share them here too..

"Alright... I got home and quickly opened them and tried about 1 min of a song on the ZX507.. Hania Rani playing her modern classical piano and when the bass came in I thought, oh oh.. I don't think I'm going to like these so much.. The piano sounded good but the bass was a bit wooly.. But 1 minute of a song with a bass that's pretty wooly on most of everything isn't enough... Took my daughter to her violin lesson, got home and had supper.....
So I just spent the better part of the last 40 mins listening with the M8... These are the strangest iems I've ever heard and they are completely seductive, and I mean seductive.. song after song, I couldn't stop listening. There's not only little things I had never heard before, not even with the Elysium, but there is a romance to the mids that is both full and warm but with an odd ring of clarity that kind of baffles me. I keep hearing this warmth and expect bleed or occlusion but there's also a crystal clarity coming through... The really deep bass is about the only weakness for me because the Bravado2 is cleaner and has a bit more extension but I should have my Bravado2 back tomorrow to confirm. It's just a little less defined and looser than I remember on some songs. I'll do a song by song analysis at some point.
I kept trying different songs and vocals are so delicately sweet, like honey.
Dire Straits' "Your Latest Trick" is pretty close to as good as I've ever heard the song with some details I've never noticed before.. I imagine they are there with the Elysium but they just come through because of the Dorado tuning.. gorgeous
I finished off with "The Maker" by Daniel Lanois as I compared the Elysium and the 3DT with that song and commented how good it sounded with the 3DT.. The fretless bass is weirdly in my head and pans a bit left to right.. not the best but Daniel's voice is as good as I've heard it. It's an intimate stage with some good spatial cues but some sounds are really up close like in this song.. The high hats though sound just perfect..
I decided to try the 3dt just to refresh my reference... it sounded well, not so good... Seriously, the romance is gone, the stage is back and seemingly unengaging and his voice is kind of thin and lifeless in comparison.
What a strange strange iem.. If an iem could embody the female principle it's the Dorado 2020.
I wondered if I could make a choice between the Dorado and the Bravado but they are so different.

I'll have to compare tomorrow against the Bravado2. The Bravado2 does (from memory) have "better" bass in terms of tightness and cleanliness but I think in comparison, the rest of the tuning is going to be vanilla, safe and missing that lure of the succubus."

When asked about what I meant by the female principle I wrote:

"
I think by female principle I am referencing a sense of the duality as in the relationship between Captain Kirk and the Green Woman dancing for him. teehee...
It's the Shakti, the action, to Shiva, the existence of being...
If the U12t is the baseline of existence, it is still unmoved.. The Dorado is the movement, the meaning behind the form, the idea put into action.. It's like a Tibetan Thangka. The U12t is the painting, the form of the art, the Dorado is how the form, which of itself is made of pigments on canvas or skin, is given meaning and movement in the ideas and feelings ..
The Captain Kirk/Green Woman is the more physical expression, in the seductive dance of procreation..

Maybe that's reading too much into it all but I've never had an iem give me these thoughts about it.. ha ha.."


-- I'll listen more this evening and get acclimated over the next couple days then try a bit of a write up with reference to a few specific songs. At the moment these aren't the combination of reference and beauty that the Elysium has but the Dorado's are just so alluring in some mysterious way that I haven't really reacted to in the same way with any iem.. I did try a Rolf Lislevand baroque album with lutes and other plucked instruments and they brought something very different than I have ever heard but it was not at all like the purity of the Elysium..

I agree with the strangeness of this IEM... I went out for a walk with the Dorados and my simple SR25 after listening all day to my new Hugo 2 and Odin. When I got home I plugged the Dorados into the Hugo 2 to see how they synergised and it was unsurprisingly very good, it has a simplicity but addictive quality that is so alluring. I had the intention of listening to about 2/3 songs before taking them out and testing how the LX reacted to the new DAC but instead found myself sitting there for a good 30-45 minutes listening to music haha. A very strange but enjoyable IEM indeed.

 

[Rockwell75]

6 months of IEMs...

 

[Rockwell75]

@mashuto how is the Jolene treating you so far? I have that one on my short list for when the uni inevitably comes out.

 

[fzman]

I agree with the strangeness of this IEM... I went out for a walk with the Dorados and my simple SR25 after listening all day to my new Hugo 2 and Odin. When I got home I plugged the Dorados into the Hugo 2 to see how they synergised and it was unsurprisingly very good, it has a simplicity but addictive quality that is so alluring. I had the intention of listening to about 2/3 songs before taking them out and testing how the LX reacted to the new DAC but instead found myself sitting there for a good 30-45 minutes listening to music haha. A very strange but enjoyable IEM indeed.

There is lots of good or even great sounding gear out there. Depending on the kind of music/source material you listen to, good ranges along a continuum from animation to Motion Capture to live action ... In other words good and real are two different things. Good comes in loits of different flavors -- which is why lots of folks have an arsenal of iems, each different enough to change the flavor.... Real is a single thing- and coherence is a big part of that. I have not heard the Dorado 2020, but have heard and or own a number of Campfire iems. They all do coherence quite well - and the better ones do it even better. Really good Motion Capture gets close-but your brain can tell it is not entirely 'real'-i.e., it is a drawing not a photograph. Same sort of thing happens with audio - your brain quickly distinguishes to the good fakes from the real thing.

Mark Twain once said "I've been told that Wagner's music is better than it sounds". I love that quote. I think it applies to lots of gear- people on HeadF-Fi endlessly debate frequency response, but they are really talking about single-tone sweeps - so if that's what you listen to, then you can tell which ones do that better. Most music contains more than one note at a time, played through drivers that fight back against the amplifier, The punching bag does not hit back!

 

[Rockwell75]

There is lots of good or even great sounding gear out there. Depending on the kind of music/source material you listen to, good ranges along a continuum from animation to Motion Capture to live action ... In other words good and real are two different things. Good comes in loits of different flavors -- which is why lots of folks have an arsenal of iems, each different enough to change the flavor.... Real is a single thing- and coherence is a big part of that. I have not heard the Dorado 2020, but have heard and or own a number of Campfire iems. They all do coherence quite well - and the better ones do it even better. Really good Motion Capture gets close-but your brain can tell it is not entirely 'real'-i.e., it is a drawing not a photograph. Same sort of thing happens with audio - your brain quickly distinguishes to the good fakes from the real thing

I tend to avoid the term "real" for reasons vaguely along these lines and prefer instead to say "natural" or some equivalent to describe, say, the difference between DD and BA timbre, specifically in the mids.

 

[mashuto]

@mashuto how is the Jolene treating you so far? I have that one on my short list for when the uni inevitably comes out.

Loving it so far. It's really a much more neutral sound than I normally go for, but it's got enough flavor to prevent it from being boring. It's definitely the type of listen that I just get lost in without even realizing it. It's definitely got that dd timbre for bass and mids, and the ba highs are smooth and well extended.

I kind of wish I still had a bunch of my other stuff to compare to, but that's alright, my goal was always to get down to one or two and I think I'm at a good place at the moment.

Compared to the universal demo, bass is a little punchier and physical, which is important to me, and treble is a bit smoother and slightly less sparkly than I remember, which I assume all comes down to insertion depth and seal. But the changes are to my liking. The uni demo was pretty huge and getting a solid fit and seal was a bit of a challenge for me as it usually tends to be for me, especially when trying to go for a little deeper insertion. But that could really just be me, as I have trouble with many iems.

Having customs is weird. I'm so used to jamming iems in my ear to make sure they are sealed and adjusting them fairly often, but they just... Fit and don't really need adjusting. Though I do think I'm going to have to get them adjusted as I still seem to have one pressure point in my right ear.

 

[Rockwell75]

Loving it so far. It's really a much more neutral sound than I normally go for, but it's got enough flavor to prevent it from being boring. It's definitely the type of listen that I just get lost in without even realizing it. It's definitely got that dd timbre for bass and mids, and the ba highs are smooth and well extended.

I kind of wish I still had a bunch of my other stuff to compare to, but that's alright, my goal was always to get down to one or two and I think I'm at a good place at the moment.

Compared to the universal demo, bass is a little punchier and physical, which is important to me, and treble is a bit smoother and slightly less sparkly than I remember, which I assume all comes down to insertion depth and seal. But the changes are to my liking. The uni demo was pretty huge and getting a solid fit and seal was a bit of a challenge for me as it usually tends to be for me, especially when trying to go for a little deeper insertion. But that could really just be me, as I have trouble with many iems.

Having customs is weird. I'm so used to jamming iems in my ear to make sure they are sealed and adjusting them fairly often, but they just... Fit and don't really need adjusting. Though I do think I'm going to have to get them adjusted as I still seem to have one pressure point in my right ear.

That's really exciting to hear...it would be nice to get some direct comparisons given that our respective journeys have taken is through many of the same IEMs. Your reports are promising though, both in terms of my own aspirations of actually owning/trying one some day and also that I'm really glad the custom thing is working for you as I know fit has been something of a pernicious issue for you.