The Watercooler -- Impressions, philosophical discussion and general banter. Index on first page. All welcome.

[Piotr Michalak]

are any of these measurements taking the impact of bcd into account?

There is no way to know for sure. Probably yes. If BCD is measurement-relevant, then it should also vibrate the whole microphone (through the putty - we're having CIEMs glued to IEC mic here by me with putty) and thus move the signal onto the mic's coil. That is if putty conducts audio like human tissue.

 

[DunkFealer]

I’m surprised this little thing doesn’t get that much hype here.
I mean if the tuning is OK for you and you have a nice Android phone (as iPhones cap mWs) than there is a high chance that you won’t need a DAP unless it’s TOTL like 320 MAX TI.

Luxury & Precision W4 has enough power (400 mW - like Cayin N7), great technicalities and absolutely totally black background.

Dare I say it but I feel that it would give hard times even to not the most powerful SP3000 flagship - curious to compare.

I've got one of these coming in today so I'm excited to test it out before sharing some impressions. Dongles have really filled a use-case niche in my day to day that is essential. The arrival of the "super dongles" has been very exciting, so I'm glad to get my hands on my own soon.

 

[maegnificant]

I have yet to hear any differences in sources. I will be gladly proven wrong, but so far it made no difference to my ears, besides volume capacity.

 

[DunkFealer]

I have yet to hear any differences in sources. I will be gladly proven wrong, but so far it made no difference to my ears, besides volume capacity.

Personally, I think a good starting place to hear more obvious differences in sources is to compare something analog with tubes to something discrete and digital. Those two broad types of setups tend to have bigger differences in sound/presentation. Of course, it ultimately depends on implementation details. For example, iBasso's latest vacuum tube-based amplification card felt uncharacteristically cold and un-tube-like for that type of set up to me.

Edit: It is interesting to think about how the KSE's Energizer fits into this... no clue! But there must be something to it and the way it interacts with sources.

 

[Piotr Michalak]

I have yet to hear any differences in sources. I will be gladly proven wrong, but so far it made no difference to my ears, besides volume capacity.

Personally, I think a good starting place to hear more obvious differences in sources is to compare ...

Compare your DAP or dongle to a setup of something like Woo Audio WA33 on a Chord Dave and see your tears fly

But I "tend" to agree. I tested several top of the line transistor amplifiers and said "my SP3000 sounds practically the same". Maybe I'm deaf? I hear more differences between the cables than these amps!

But then I hear my SP3000 definitely better than SP1000M gold. I still love the latter, especially for the perfect form factor and beauty, and even sent it for upgrades at NPaudio (still waiting). But listen to it for a few hours and I get tired, there's not enough dynamics, the sound lacks proper drive and is tiresome.

Similar story between SP3000 and Shanling M9 I had. At first I thought "why upgrade", but after a while I heard the black background and more refinement and control.

Then WM1ZM2 is even better (for me) - more analogue and magical, similarly to aforementioned WA33. Black background is also here, and I love the holography. It sounds analogue like what we read about R2R and tube amplifiers (for me).

So I would say, we don't hear A/B split test differences between sources, like 15 seconds here and there. Both sources "play music" and does it rather more correctly than not. But you probably could distinguish differences after a few hours of listening.

 

[haci]

There is no way to know for sure. Probably yes. If BCD is measurement-relevant, then it should also vibrate the whole microphone (through the putty - we're having CIEMs glued to IEC mic here by me with putty) and thus move the signal onto the mic's coil. That is if putty conducts audio like human tissue.

thinking out loud: it does sound like the measurement systems might pick up a bcd effect, but the effect they are picking up seems to be almost surely different from how humans hear it. two reasons:

1- the tissue that transmits bcd is different from human tissue, so the signal probably gets altered in a different way compared to humans

2- mics are simulating the eardrum, not the cochlea (where bcd vibrations end up) and the mechsnics probably differ between the two.

any comments/ ideas?

 

[nikbr]

First Rehabilitation Test is complete!

Finding the best portable source for Aurora.

I went through these following songs which cover all spectrums very capably. Below each song I briefly described how the three contestants fared.

Meet the contestants, from left to right: Penon Tail, Fiio BTR7, Venture Electronics Megatron

Some differences were extremely subtle, while others were immediately apparent! It goes to show that choosing the right source is absolutely crucial in overall auditory performance!

1st Song (three various strings spread over the soundstage, a very focused female vocal)

BTR7:
+: clearer vocal and guitars, highly detailed strings, good resolution, bitey, good dynamics, good imaging
-: not the best separation of instruments, soundstage not the largest.

Megatron:
+: nicer separation, better soundstage width, good imaging
-: smoothens everything, less detailed, less bitey, less dynamic, female vocal too mellowed

Tail:
-: worst soundstage, poor imaging, worse separation, additional grittiness in vocals, adds weight to low mids, slightly plasticky strings on the far right

2nd Song (soothing female vocal, piano, bass, and trumpets timbre, precise staging)

BTR7:
+: great imaging, good separation, wonderful vocal, best timbre
-: not the widest stage

Megatron:
+: more pronounced bass, softer but thicker piano notes, widest stage
-: vocal a bit pushed back, all notes are more pillowy than on BTR7

Tail:
+: better width than BTR7
-: more bass, but worse controlled, funny sounding trumpets, slightly boring

3rd Song (piano note weight, expressive female vocals, precise staging, dynamics)

BTR7:
+: very clear piano with decent note weight, vocal nice (a bit more back than on M), quick
-: lean presentation

Megatron:
+: weightier notes, vocal a bit more forward and more soulful than on BTR7, adds bass weight
-: less clarity in piano notes

Tail:
-: timbre of piano is slightly off, note separation not as good as on BTR7, vocals not as forward nor clear as the other two, adds more midbass/low mids than other two, not as resolute

4th Song (openness, jazz club ambiance, stage depth, timbral accuracy)

BTR7:
+: best layering and depth perception, good timbre, good resolution

Megatron:
+: better layering than T, timbre is okay -: resolution not the best

Tail:
-: 2D stage, cannot keep elements apart, timbre a bit off

5th Song (multiple overlapping sounds, back vocals, bass presence/extension/punch, treble quality)

BTR7:
+: everything done very capably, good bass punch
-: bass lacks weight

Megatron:
+: meaty bass
-: not as punchy as BTR7, not the most resolving due to smoothness

Tail:
+: solid punch, okay separation
-: adds artificial bass cca 80-150hz which is very noticeable and annoying in this song, lacks power for subbass, worst resolution

6th Song (sax and piano timbre, presence, naturalness, openness)

BTR7:
+: very resolving, good imaging, good separation
-: a bit clinical and cold, least bassy

Megatron:
+: adds a layer of warmth, imaging good
-: resolution two steps behind BTR7, sax not bitey enough

Tail:
-: artificial midbass boost, lacks clarity and resolution of BTR7 and even Megatron

7th Song (technical electronica, highly rhythmic, requires quality bass and good atmospherical presentation)

BTR7:
+: greatest staging and a fraction more ambience than on Megatron
-: a bit too sterile

Megatron:
+: best for house/techno
-: lacks technicalities of BTR7 due to smoothening

Tail:
-: ridiculous rhythm section at the beginning with bloated midbass, worst soundstage, not great at dynamics

8th Song (technicalities, male vocal, incredibly dynamic outro)

BTR7:
+: clean bass, widest soundstage, best separation, resolution, a decent mix of musicality and technicality but more on the technical side
-: bass does not feel as effortless as with Megatron

Megatron:
+: nicer more natural bass than Tail, soundstage decent, male vocal has body, more on the musical side
-: snappy sounds are not quick enough

Tail:
-: funny bloomy bass, quick sounds are not as snappy and dynamic, imaging not up to BTR7 standard

Conclusion:
This ended up being way more one-sided than I thought. An easy win goes to Fiio BTR7.

But, IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER, all tests were done with it wired as a USB DAC/AMP, and it's way less dynamic and way less resolving when used as a BT DAC/AMP!

Ps. Check out all these tunes, they are tremendous in one way or another.

 

[Piotr Michalak]

any comments/ ideas?

I propose do all FiR and UM owners - do a test.

First, let's prove that FiR system is not a bass-kinetic port.

1. Take the IEM out of your ear.
2. Close the nozzle with your finger.
3. Put the port close to your ear.
4. Listen to music. Try putting it close to different parts of your ear if you want.

Now what do you hear?

It's surely not the bass. It's upper mids and some highs.

What do you think about it?

Still I believe my Radon6 is a great CIEM. I'm just asking questions and trying to understand.

Now take out your favorite UM...

1. Close the nozzle with your finger.
2. Press the shell onto your ear.
3. Listen to the music. Try different parts of the shell or your ear.

What do you hear?

Answer: Probably nothing.

What do you think about this? Because most of us hear that BCD surely does something.

I hear UM's BCD doing more than in case of FiR, to be honest. Maybe because FiR is already tubeless...

So maybe BCD is just a tubeless driver sitting inside the shell and doing some overall ambiance or quick reverberations and decay that we interpret as additional depth?

Now Empire Ear guys, do you hear anything from your BCD while closing the nozzle?

 

[slumberman]

BCDs are not quite what people think. There is no vibration that gets transferred to any bone. No part of the IEM is touching any bone to conduct to, without a hearing implant.Cartilage wouldn’t be able to transmit the full spectrum they specify for a BCD. In my opinion whatever the BCD does in these IEMs comes out of the main nozzle, like everything else.

 

[smirks_audio]

First of all, great write-up! I really enjoyed reading through it, and the work you put in to test the three candidates thoroughly.

But, IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER, all tests were done with it wired as a USB DAC/AMP, and it's way less dynamic and way less resolving when used as a BT DAC/AMP!

Had a question about this though. I don't know about dynamics, but I thought wired was always better resolving? For my lack of knowledge here, why would the BT be more resolving and more dynamic?

 

[SweetCans928]

First of all, great write-up! I really enjoyed reading through it, and the work you put in to test the three candidates thoroughly.


Had a question about this though. I don't know about dynamics, but I thought wired was always better resolving? For my lack of knowledge here, why would the BT be more resolving and more dynamic?

I read his comment as saying it is in fact LESS dynamic and resolving when using bluetooth.

 

[smirks_audio]

I read his comment as saying it is in fact LESS dynamic and resolving when using bluetooth.

You're right, I re-read it. My reading comprehension is lacking today morning

 

[nikbr]

First of all, great write-up! I really enjoyed reading through it, and the work you put in to test the three candidates thoroughly.


Had a question about this though. I don't know about dynamics, but I thought wired was always better resolving? For my lack of knowledge here, why would the BT be more resolving and more dynamic?

I read his comment as saying it is in fact LESS dynamic and resolving when using bluetooth.

I'm terribly sorry for causing confusion.
Essentially, it is much better wired than through BT. Better dynamics (difference is easily heard on that 8th song) and better resolution (most easily observed on 4th song).

 

[Frankie D]

BCDs are not quite what people think. There is no vibration that gets transferred to any bone. No part of the IEM is touching any bone to conduct to, without a hearing implant.Cartilage wouldn’t be able to transmit the full spectrum they specify for a BCD. In my opinion whatever the BCD does in these IEMs comes out of the main nozzle, like everything else.

This is incorrect from the little bit of reading I have done on them and my own experience. They literally vibrate and that vibration is transferred to your ear:

Out of all the drivers we have discussed so far, Bone Conduction Drivers(or BCD in short) are different from the previous ones. The sound-generating principle is the same, the driver vibrates in its place and produces the sound. But BCD drivers produce sound by coming in contact with our bones. BCD drivers are heavily used in hearing-aid devices. But in recent times, we have seen brands implementing Bone-Conduction Drivers in IEMs as a part of the hybrid configuration.

At CanJam NY EE had a demo pair of IEMs that included BCD drivers. One pair had a thicker shell and minimal bass while the other had a thinner shell and much better bass. Both were tuned exactly the same according to EE with the only difference being the thickness of the shell. The difference was immediately noticeable.

 

[smirks_audio]

I'm terribly sorry for causing confusion.
Essentially, it is much better wired than through BT. Better dynamics (difference is easily heard on that 8th song) and better resolution (most easily observed on 4th song).

You didn't cause anything, the confusion was of my own doing lol.

Again, great write-up!