[remilio]

Quote:

No, this was before all that, I had a vintage receiver at the time.  Peak, at least in relation to the Paradox.

Hmm, Paradox has peak at about 10Khz too, but I found these to be more balanced than my ex HE-500 anyway. I don't regret at all about selling hifimans.

 

[oblique63]

Quote:

 
Your going to need a amp with some juice behind it to get all those good things the HE-5LE can give you.  With the Paradox that kind of amp is not needed.

 
I currently have them running off an O2+ODAC, as it's supposed to be fairly transparent (which is what I wanted, along with a transparent/flat headphone), and it seems to have more than enough power to fuel the 5LE.  Assuming this setup, how would they compare?
 
 

That's true.  It's been a long time since I sold my 5LEs, but from what I can remember it's not as balanced as the Paradox, slightly v-shaped in FR, and has a significant peak in the treble.  I can't recall whether it's much better in technical matters, but even if it is, the peaks and FR are it's downfall next to the Paradox.  A peak can mask detail in adjacent bands. 

 

That's interesting. I originally got the 5LE's because LFF suggested they were the most neutral of the Hifimans, no comments made with regards to his own Paradox however, so now I'm curious...  would the Paradox be a worthwhile 'upgrade' from the 5LE if I'm looking to use it for studio purposes?  I really like the mids and imaging on the Hifiman, super clear and detailed, but the bass isn't terribly strong, and I can certainly believe the bit about the treble peak as they do seem a bit bright... So what would be the difference with the Paradoxes then?

 

[preproman]

Quote:

 
I currently have them running off an O2+ODAC, as it's supposed to be fairly transparent (which is what I wanted, along with a transparent/flat headphone), and it seems to have more than enough power to fuel the 5LE.  Assuming this setup, how would they compare?
 
 
 

That's interesting. I originally got the 5LE's because LFF suggested they were the most neutral of the Hifimans, no comments made with regards to his own Paradox however, so now I'm curious...  would the Paradox be a worthwhile 'upgrade' from the 5LE if I'm looking to use it for studio purposes?  I really like the mids and imaging on the Hifiman, super clear and detailed, but the bass isn't terribly strong, and I can certainly believe the bit about the treble peak as they do seem a bit bright... So what would be the difference with the Paradoxes then?

 
 
The bass is not strong - because of the O2+ODAC I'm guessing.  The bass on the 5LEs in my setup is great.  Weak bass is a sign of being underpowered. 

 

[oblique63]

Quote:

 
 
The bass is not strong - because of the O2+ODAC I'm guessing.  The bass on the 5LEs in my setup is great.  Weak bass is a sign of being underpowered. 

I'm speaking in comparison to my Denons (D5000 and D600), which I consider to have relatively neutral bass for headphones (if a bit muddy in the D5000).  I can clearly hear down to around 20hz in the Hifimans before they sharply drop off, but they begin to roll off at about 30hz, whereas my denons can handle down to at least 5hz and level out by about 15hz.  If' there's anything I've learned reading through around here, is that everybody's interpretation of 'bass' is different, so when I say 'bass', I mean a fully compensated bass and sub-bass (i.e. everything below about 300hz). So I guess you could say I'm also talking about bass extension just as much as I am about bass quantity. And unless I'm misunderstanding the concept of an amp, if an amp can [transparently] bring a phone to blistering levels, then I would assume that means the phone is sufficiently powered, and any added bass would be a sign of distortion (or 'coloration'), no?  Quality of the source would probably be the more likely culprit in that scenario, but even then I would assume the ODAC to be adequate, as I've heard the same 'problem' with these phones through a couple other amps/sources...

 

[TMRaven]

You are correct in that, Oblique.  There's no reason for the O2/ODAC to not adequately or even go well with the Paradox, especially when it was one of the amp/dac pairs that LFF used when tuning the things.
 
It's just your experience in headphones.  If D5000 bass is your neutral, then a lot of headphones will be bass-light.  For what it's worth, you shouldn't hear-- or heck, even feel anything (because headphones move little air) under 15-20hz.  You're most likely experiencing harmonics, and the Denons have a butt-load of HD in the low bass.

 

[preproman]

The O2 is adequate but not ideal for the HE-5LEs.  I also was unaware the Denons was neutral at anything.  
 
Bringing the headphone to blistering listening levels does not mean it's sufficiently powered.  It just means it can get loud.  How loud the headphones can get is not the question.  
 
Sure they can play music and get loud doing it.  However, driving them ideally has a lot more to do with how much current they're getting and how much current the amp has in it's reserves.  The O2 falls short in this area.  
 
Yes indeed the O2 is a very clean and neutral amp.  But just not the ideal amp for the HE-5LE, HE-6 or even the HE-4 IMO..  Maybe good with other orthos ie ..HE-500, HE-400, Paradox, Mad Dogs  and so on.  
 
It's also a matter of how much a amp can control the bass as well.  Case in point the Magni can drive headphones to blistering levels as well.  The Denon D5000s will start to distort very fast but not the case on other amps I have like the B22 or the a-100 mini X for example.

 

[chrislangley4253]

Paradox could go down to like.. 16hz for me. It was kinda crazy. The regular t50rp can go almost as low, 20ish. But not without bass rattle.

 

[oblique63]

Quote:

The ODAC is adequate but not ideal for the HE-5LEs.  I also was unaware the Denons was neutral at anything.  
 
Bringing the headphone to blistering listening levels does not mean it's sufficiently powered.  It just means it can get loud.  How loud the headphones can get is not the question.  
 
Sure they can play music and get loud doing it.  However, driving them ideally has a lot more to do with how much current they're getting and how much current the amp has in it's reserves.  The ODAC falls short in this area.  
 
Yes indeed the ODAC is a very clean and neutral amp.  But just not the ideal amp for the HE-5LE, HE-6 or even the HE-4 IMO..  Maybe good with other orthos ie ..HE-500, HE-400, Paradox, Mad Dogs  and so on.  
 
It's also a matter of how much a amp can control the bass as well.  Case in point the Magni can drive headphones to blistering levels as well.  The Denon D5000s will start to distort very fast but not the case on other amps I have like the B22 or the a-100 mini X for example.

 
I did try to emphasize transparently amping them, as in faithfully amplifying the source waves without distortion, not just about loudness, cause I am fully aware that a terrible amp can bring absurd levels as well.
 
The only time I tried the 5LE with amps/sources that were supposedly 'significantly better' than my setup (according to the sales guy) was when I was first trying them out in a store to buy them. Unfortunately I don't remember the specific amps I tried, but it sounded to me about the same as they do now with my setup (and yes, I always use the same set of lossless tracks to test out headphones). So I guess I'm now left wondering at around where this 'ideal' level of amp is, and whether it's really that significant of an improvement over what I'm getting now... and what the difference is between that 'ideally powered' 5LE, and a Paradox + O2...
 
And the denons do have a few harmonics bouncing around in the sub-bass to produce that low rumble (more-so in the D5000's), but they seem to sound like the closest to a small studio setup with a decent subwoofer in my opinion (and distortion or not, this type of compensation does make it easier to accurately judge bass levels when mixing, which is what I care about mostly). The mids/highs are another story however, hence I grabbed the 5LE's.
 
Also just to clarify, I don't really find this bass thing to be an actual 'problem' with the Hifimans, I just think they're a bit short of neutral in that area, so I was wondering how the Paradoxes compare. Just want to make sure we don't start making mountains out of molehills here...

 

[TMRaven]

Are you guys boosting the pots on your amps up to unreasonable levels to get these crazy numbers?  16hz? 20hz? 15hz? 5hz?  It just doesn't seem right.
 
At usual levels on the amp, My Denons only went down to around 25hz before rolloff, the HE-400 around 35hz, an M50 around 30hz.  All this sub-sonic talk is making me think you guys are really boosting up the volume levels just to be able to hear or feel something that low.

 

[preproman]

Quote:

 
I did try to emphasize transparently amping them, as in faithfully amplifying the source waves without distortion, not just about loudness, cause I am fully aware that a terrible amp can bring absurd levels as well.
 
The only time I tried the 5LE with amps/sources that were supposedly 'significantly better' than my setup (according to the sales guy) was when I was first trying them out in a store to buy them. Unfortunately I don't remember the specific amps I tried, but it sounded to me about the same as they do now with my setup (and yes, I always use the same set of lossless tracks to test out headphones). So I guess I'm now left wondering at around where this 'ideal' level of amp is, and whether it's really that significant of an improvement over what I'm getting now... and what the difference is between that 'ideally powered' 5LE, and a Paradox + O2...
 
And the denons do have a few harmonics bouncing around in the sub-bass to produce that low rumble (more-so in the D5000's), but they seem to sound like the closest to a small studio setup with a decent subwoofer in my opinion. The mids/highs are another story however, hence I grabbed the 5LE's.

 
 
Just one of the cheap ones..
 
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/a100
 
The transformer in this is bigger than the entire O2

 
Just to be clear.  The Paradox is fine on the O2..

 

[TMRaven]

The O2 is the amp btw.  Way to talk about them not powering certain headphones without even knowing which one is which.  

 

[preproman]

Quote:

The O2 is the amp btw.  Way to talk about them not powering certain headphones without even knowing which one is which.  

 
 
 

 

[paradoxper]

The Paradox is fine with O2 but not the Hifiman 5LE/500?

 

[chrislangley4253]

Quote:

Are you guys boosting the pots on your amps up to unreasonable levels to get these crazy numbers?  16hz? 20hz? 15hz? 5hz?  It just doesn't seem right.
 
At usual levels on the amp, My Denons only went down to around 25hz before rolloff, the HE-400 around 35hz, an M50 around 30hz.  All this sub-sonic talk is making me think you guys are really boosting up the volume levels just to be able to hear or feel something that low.

 Yes and no. I think I turned up the stock t50rp pretty high to get real low. The Paradox, not so much. If I remember correctly. The stock t50rp just has a much more prominent rolloff.

 

[LFF]

I feel the need to chime in here.
 
YES...I did use the O2 and ODAC combo to test and tune the Paradox BUT it was one of various amps I used.
 
YES...I do recommend people get the O2/ODAC combo because it's adequate enough to drive the Paradox and because it is cheap and neutral. The new gear from Schiit might be even better...I have yet to try it.
 
Do I use it? Occasionally. Is it my preferred amp for the Paradox? No.
 
This is my preferred "transportable" set-up sitting on top of my work computer:
 

 
 
I use a custom built amp that puts out 85 watts peak per channel with a custom installed DAC. That's one of my Paradox headphones sitting on top. This is what I personally use on a daily basis. The DAC will soon be switched out for a maxed out custom Buffalo III build with custom regulators and custom power supply. 
 
Is the Paradox fine/adequate on the O2/ODAC? Yes...it's the bare minimum I recommend. However, the better the source gear, the better the sound of the Paradox will be. I can't stress it enough...the Paradox really doesn't sound like anything...so what you will be hearing will be your gear chain and source. The better your gear and source...the better output you will get on the Paradox. Don't like cold/boring sound? Put a CTH in and start tube rolling for more mid-range bloom! Prefer affordable and good? Use the ODAC and O2 (or look into the Schiit gear!). Want some amazing bass and liquid mid-range with a smooth top end, pair it with a Buffalo III and a Liquid Glass. Want more authority...pair it with a Perfect Wave 2 and a Balancing Act.
 
The resulting performance is really up to you.