The Stax Thread III

Nov 11, 2014 at 7:09 AM Post #3,601 of 28,110
  seems to be pretty old though - early '90 production or am I wrong?
I fear that innovation in technology could make this option a little outdated and outperformed by today's DAC's in the same price range.


Well my friend, you will be surprised about how certain vintage DACs(not necessarily all) are better than the most modern ones. For further reading check the "Thoughts on a bunch of DACs......." thread on Head fi.
 
Nov 11, 2014 at 8:10 AM Post #3,602 of 28,110
Couple of words about metal music + Stax 009 and 007MK2. (Summary on impressions on metal + almost 60 cans is here http://www.head-fi.org/t/715478/headphones-for-metal-music-ultimate-solution)
 
Stax 009
We welcome one more headphones which talents lie outside metal genres. Alas, Stax SR-009 for me are among "great, but non-metal headphones". It's rather sad for the person spoiled by a bass volume of many of top contemporary dynamic and isodynamic cans to find such a problem, actually the only problem, in a supertop headphones. 009 just don't provide enough of bass pressure for metal. Other technical parameters of 009 surely bypass most of competitors. 
 
Couple of words about technical performance. I listened 009 with Wooaudio WES (tubes used - Tesla EL34, Sylvania 6SL7GT). Also tried 009 on Headamp KGSS, but its powerful and brawny character, considerably concealed pluses of 009, but but could not cope to conceal the only minus (bass performance). With WES 009 possess the stunning, huge scene. Exciting, detailed, with no trace of fatiguing brightness. Natural, stunningly realistic mids, originally - dead neutral, with tubes used - slightly warm. A bass - fast, detailed, extended, but compared to many top cans, not too large in volume.
 
That was pleasant on metal:
Progressive: Slightly pale, but nevertheless extremely impressive reflection of abilities 009 to play a prog-rock (The genre created for headphones, the headphones created for a genre. Behind each turn, the new line - an invariable new portion of endorphins. Wide, airy. Ideal contact of 009 signature with music material.)  …
Heavy Metal: The vocal hypnotizes and moves you far beyond. Instrumental parts flow like clouds in the sky. Above than "simply perfect". But shoot me at my foot - it seems that it's is possible to perform Hard Rock even better.
Symphonic: Symphonic and vocal fragments are at such a level… The endorphin volume quite replaces the easiest failure of the drive (compared to 007). Better than many of the best, but not absolute top perhaps.
Goth: And this is perhaps not "simply the best", but "the best of the best". The abundance of voice parts allows to clear up, reveal in the full grew key pluses, generally slow tempo with no need in bass shock doesn't allow minus to creep out.
 
That was pleasant less:
Industrial: Pressure of a metal wall has to smear you methodically on a floor. Doesn't smear. There is no massage of liver on the infra-bass.
Sludge, Stoner: Where power and light-hearted enthusiasm are necessary - 009 give in, alas. Lack of bass pressure and lack of crazy energy.
Power: Technically perhaps quite okay - soundstage is wide, the vocal is great, a lack of a bass isn't too bad. But atmosphere... 009 play too serious and even for Power metal.
Black: Very precise and accurate. But bomehow toy-like... On a bass - as if you you look at the tiny dwarfs through magnifying glass. But it supposed to be a terrible giant, arousing fear.
Death: Impressions on Black repeated. The little man behaves violently representing the titan.
Grindcore: Accurately, but not impactful enough. Filigree, but not brutal. Seemingly razor-sharp, but razor doesn't cut a throat.
Doom: Not so bad as could follow from abstract bass volume shortage analysis. The bass after all has excellent extent, the infra-bass is present. But the level of low frequency fat is really low to recreate impressive Doom atmosphere.
Alternative: Technically everything is almost okay, but for top top level cans - not ideal. Not enough of slam, not so desperate as in other metal subgenres, but nevertheless. Lack of "spark", 009 play too even and true.
 
Grand total. If the considerable part of music preferences of yours consusts of nonmetallic genres, with a highest probability minuses noted in the review can be irrelevant for you. It is possible to ignore them safely and to considet 009 best cans for metal also. If there is no wish or it is impossible for you to ignore more bass-heavy dynamic/orthodynamic cans, alas, in my opinion - 009 on metal are niche players, one of the of the best however for these niches.
 
Stax 007MK2
On non-metal genres I listened 007 on WES, on a meatal - KGSS. Alas, on both amplifiers there was a feeling that 007 are under-amplified. On non-metal genres with WES such a feeling perhaps even makes the certain flavour, that a right for existence. KGSS plays fast and powerful metal better, than WES, but... Impression that 007 can play better, much better does not leave me.
 
KGSS + 007 have well controlled, dense bass. Euphoric electrostatic air on  mids and highs is blown off a bit - welcome to solidstate amplification. Mids of 007 are a little more flat compared to 009. The soundstage is much less, than 009's scene. But, the most amusing - 007's minuses manage to turn to pluses on some genres. 
 
Joy:
Heavy Metal: If 009 were made as lethal weapon for progressive rock, 007 MK2 were created as hard rock lethal weapon. Add some more of "meat", "brutality" and even reduced soundstage (in comparison with 009) - everything in 007 sound signature develops in pluses on a genre, realizing outstanding result.
Doom: Somewhat unexpected. Strangely enough, even on going to an overload (hello, Monolord) 007 don't give in neither on density nor on power. The pure mids gives special, fauvorable for Doom flavour.
Sludge, Stoner: Genre is a mix of Doom and Heavy metal and so are results.
Alternative: Well. The vocal fascinates in an ordinary electrostatic manner. PRAT drives. The bass slam is more than enough for the genre. Above than "an average excellent".
Thrash: If cans are magnificent on vigorous rock, is it the reason to give them top marks for every rock-ish genre? On Thrash - definitely. Energy whips, speed impresses, detail level id striking, but not straining.
 
Grieve:
Black, Death, Grindcore: I listened 007 on Black for a long, I was thinking, I was looking for an answer on forum threads. What's the problem?, It seems like everything is accurate and balanced, technical abilities of 007 fit Black metal very well. But. Anyway. On Black, Death and Grindcore after couple of minutes of listening subconscious message doesn't allow to take full pleasure from music. A bass. Drums sound as if at peaks of signals sinusoidal tops are cut off plainly. Or in poles between "humps" of peaks of signals sand is filled up. Terribly unpleasant. The most probable reason for this - KGSS (not hv version) under-amplifies 007 MK2. At least on on fast extreme genres.
Power: No. Not enough of space for power-metal soul to take off. Too seriously it thumps, too heavy for a flight.
Progressive, Symphonic: Excessively heavy, especially on contrast with 009, there is no the wide and ringing emptiness, magical "nowhere" from which sounds of music appears. A closet - not a soundstage for Progressive and Symphonic metal.
Goth: Typically mediocre for vigorous cans. It is not a right time for and joyful run. It is better to sit and grieve in a cold of the night.
 
With a regret I has to note that if 009 on nonmetallic genres unambiguously make absolutely indelible impression, 007 on metal don't make such radical impression. Certainly 007 are among top of the top headphones, but they're not top of the top of the top )) I had no time for adaptation to 007 sound signature, couple of weeks is not enough? Perhaps. Not my sound? Possibly. But feelings from 009 listening were like "Wow...", from 007 it was more loke "Hmm, somehow something isn't perfect, it seems like cans XXX play it better". And even thus that as a rule XXX played at the similar level, but in a different way, 007 were by default considered as catching up...
Planning to try 007 later on more appropriate amplification.
 
Nov 11, 2014 at 8:20 AM Post #3,603 of 28,110
Have you tried JPS Labs Abyss ? At least torture / gothic / medevial design should match 
biggrin.gif


Ali
 
Nov 11, 2014 at 8:40 AM Post #3,604 of 28,110

Well, (in reply to Kothganesh and Jonathan6610), I was conjecturing that in a sector in which technological advances has been tremendous in the last 15 years, perhaps these advances have implied better quality at a much lower price.
But this is a conjecture: meaning I'm asking for feedback by those who have had the opportunity to compare.
I wonder for example how a 16bit 44ghz would fare with files with a higher sampling.
but certainly buying-trying-reselling if not satisfied makes a lot of sense, provided one finds one somewhere....
 
Nov 11, 2014 at 8:47 AM Post #3,605 of 28,110
  Have you tried JPS Labs Abyss ? At least torture / gothic / medevial design should match 
biggrin.gif


Ali

Impressive image is not the only virtue of Abysses on metal )) I hope to try them vs HE-6 for a couple of weeks starting this weekend.
 
Nov 11, 2014 at 8:53 AM Post #3,606 of 28,110
I've listened to death/back/doom/thrash on a variety of cans, namely HE-6/500, Audeze LCD-XC, HD600/650/800, Koss ESP950 (with E90 amp and with KGST), Grado RS1/225i/60i (both woody mod) and i find the dynamic cans to be best for metal. The electrostats not so great due to a lack of bass body although the speed and airiness is impressive. 
 
The LCD-XC are not so good (for me) with metal as the mid bass is lacking leading to a less than fun factor. Hence, the Grados do metal very well for me, so do the Hifimans. Mid-bass punch makes it all the more fun to listen to metal with.
 
Nov 11, 2014 at 9:42 AM Post #3,607 of 28,110
I'll say it again, the 009 stomps out just about every phone with metal. The HE-6 is probably the only other headphone that definitely has more body, but loses out
in speed, resolution and overall magic. That is, it doesn't suck me into the music. Then again, I'm not a bass head who craves schitty boomy over emphasized crap.
 
Nov 12, 2014 at 12:30 AM Post #3,608 of 28,110
  I'll say it again, the 009 stomps out just about every phone with metal. The HE-6 is probably the only other headphone that definitely has more body, but loses out
in speed, resolution and overall magic. That is, it doesn't suck me into the music. Then again, I'm not a bass head who craves schitty boomy over emphasized crap.

Amen! Unfortunately, there are way too many fans of denon/fostex crap sound...
 
Nov 12, 2014 at 1:44 AM Post #3,610 of 28,110
  I'll say it again, the 009 stomps out just about every phone with metal. The HE-6 is probably the only other headphone that definitely has more body, but loses out
in speed, resolution and overall magic. That is, it doesn't suck me into the music. Then again, I'm not a bass head who craves schitty boomy over emphasized crap.

I can't say, that "overall magic" of 009 is the resource of critical importance on metal. It can be synergic to one genre (i.e. progressive) or can be almost anti-synergic for another (i.e. industrial). And other headphones can have their own "magic" (i.e. LCD-3 are extremely "magical" cans).
The same can be told about "speed and resolution". "Speed and resolution" can have almost no importance on Doom, but they're critical i.e. for Grindcore. But. If headphones do not have enough bass power to apply to every detail on Grindcore (to have enough energy to hammer a nail in you head)), overall performance on genre gets far from perfect. 009 just lack energy needed here.
Too much of bass also can be a drawback even on metal (there is a lot of examples in my thread).
 
I understand, that deep involvment in sound signature of headphones can make it possible to listen every given genre with deep emotional responce. But. My enterprise is to exlpore objective reasons for headphones/music genres synergy. And objectively 009 are not the best choice for metal.
 
Nov 12, 2014 at 1:48 AM Post #3,611 of 28,110
Amen! Unfortunately, there are way too many fans of denon/fostex crap sound...


Careful :). I also like more a stock 007 mk1 than a stock TH900. It was bassy, slower, less clean and clear. My new 007 pads made the 007 sound more open, with larger sound stage and improved bass as well. My TH900 mods made the Fostex sound almost like the 007, except in the bass where it's even better and a costant flow of wow feeling, beating the HE6 and LCD3, I think it may even beat the Abyss too, although never compared directly. Dangerous claims aside, put in a more reserved way, my modded TH900 is better with rock/metal than my 007 with either stock or modded pads. That visceral, hard hitting, subterranean bass has such an energy Stax can't make the same way at the moment, and there is no way back once you heard it rumbling and thundering. The 007 is absolutely enjoyable though, with advantages over the TH900, and I wouldn't miss much - if anything - had I not have the modded TH900 as well.

However, I would agree that in general, stat bass would be more natural, and preferable over most closed basshead phones sound.

As for one, I liked the 009 bass more than the stock 007mk1, because the larger sound stage and better definition, but with the better pads the gap is much less, if not reversed (at least in the bass area).
 
Nov 12, 2014 at 2:44 AM Post #3,612 of 28,110
Careful
smily_headphones1.gif
. I also like more a stock 007 mk1 than a stock TH900. It was bassy, slower, less clean and clear. My new 007 pads made the 007 sound more open, with larger sound stage and improved bass as well. My TH900 mods made the Fostex sound almost like the 007, except in the bass where it's even better and a costant flow of wow feeling, beating the HE6 and LCD3, I think it may even beat the Abyss too, although never compared directly. Dangerous claims aside, put in a more reserved way, my modded TH900 is better with rock/metal than my 007 with either stock or modded pads. That visceral, hard hitting, subterranean bass has such an energy Stax can't make the same way at the moment, and there is no way back once you heard it rumbling and thundering. The 007 is absolutely enjoyable though, with advantages over the TH900, and I wouldn't miss much - if anything - had I not have the modded TH900 as well.

However, I would agree that in general, stat bass would be more natural, and preferable over most closed basshead phones sound.

As for one, I liked the 009 bass more than the stock 007mk1, because the larger sound stage and better definition, but with the better pads the gap is much less, if not reversed (at least in the bass area).

Thanks for your comparison of the th900 against 007! How would you say the 007mk2.5 fares against the fostex flagship? The newer stax revision, although less neutral sounding, seems to have higher bass spl before the 30hz and below infrasonic range, and many have attributed its sound signature to a more lively sounding balance, making the mk1 somewhat anemic in comparison. 
I am also interested in what mods have been applied to your fostex headphones. Is it the lawton mods that many are talking about in the th900 thread?
I am new to this headphone world, so I don't know much about the sound signatures and qualities of different headphones, but I do appreciate a more analogue-like sound with a generous serving of bass. I have the 009 with a DIY Blue Hawaii amp, as well as the lcd-3 fed by the Objective2, both setups receiving a signal from the resonnessence labs invicta dac. However, the 009 sound too bright for me as I hate treble, particularly in the 6-8khz region. So will something like the th900, modded, with a good amp sound closer to an an analogue sounding speaker like the B&W 801D, which I have and really like for its hefty bass and lack of sibilant treble?
Any help would be appreciated.
 
Nov 12, 2014 at 3:11 AM Post #3,613 of 28,110
Well my friend, you will be surprised about how certain vintage DACs(not necessarily all) are better than the most modern ones. For further reading check the "Thoughts on a bunch of DACs......." thread on Head fi.


Thanks for the suggestion, I went through a large part of the thread and found surprising things about new and old DACs. Wonder if what is being told about not new ones applies to PS Audio too. I have found an old model on sale close to where I live, the PS Audio superlink, but could not find any information about how it supposedly sound.
Any idea?
 
Nov 12, 2014 at 3:12 AM Post #3,614 of 28,110
I don't have possibility to directly compare a 007 mk2 now to the Fostex, but at the time I listened to all Stax phones, the mk2 made the least impression of the bunch, in fact I liked the 507 more at first (definitely more lively), but it's true that I haven't spent enough time with it, which is absolutely critical for Stax headphones. Liveliness is perhaps not a good criterion for lasting first impression. The 007 mk1 didn't impress me either at first, but after one week it was magical :). It taught me listening to the music in a different way, and I found it immensely satisfying. "Magical" is the word used when you cannot really quantify why something clicks in so good? Then yes it's magical :).
 
I love clean and well defined extended bass (I have full range speakers as well, plus REL Stadium subwoofers), and I am completely fine with the Stax bass, not really missing anything. However, in tonality the modded TH900 comes close to my main system, without room problems... I will post a thread about the TH900 mods, as it's something I've been working on for about half a year now together with another head-fier. Yes, it also uses a part of the basic Lawton mod (which has a little effect, but it's like the last drop in a glass rather than game-changing). If someone needs one all-purpose headphone, this would be the one I'd recommend, because the rather big improvement opportunities, and it doesn't sound bad to start with. However, this is still not good enough reason to move away from Stax :). I mainly use the TH900 at the office (leaks much less) and the Stax+TH900 at home.
 
 
The modded 007mk1 comes much closer to the 009 from my memory (I need to compare them head to head again, which looks to be difficult in this forgotten northern corner of the world), has very good bass and no treble issues at all, albeit it has more treble than the slightly reserved stock version, so that may be a good compromise as well. The 007 ear pad mod is quite simple compared to the TH900 mod, sets a nice open and large sound, but in bass department the TH900 is king. I should receive soon 009 replacement pads, want to try them with the 007, watch this space for updates.
 
Nov 12, 2014 at 3:35 AM Post #3,615 of 28,110
  I am new to this headphone world, so I don't know much about the sound signatures and qualities of different headphones, but I do appreciate a more analogue-like sound with a generous serving of bass. I have the 009 with a DIY Blue Hawaii amp, as well as the lcd-3 fed by the Objective2, both setups receiving a signal from the resonnessence labs invicta dac. However, the 009 sound too bright for me as I hate treble, particularly in the 6-8khz region. So will something like the th900, modded, with a good amp sound closer to an an analogue sounding speaker like the B&W 801D, which I have and really like for its hefty bass and lack of sibilant treble?
Any help would be appreciated.

If you're looking for "more analogue-like sound with a generous serving of bass", are not LCD-3 an answer? If you have LCD-3 version with no fazors you could inject some Fostex-like clarity into them if you move to fazors.
 
And if you find 009 too bright I'm afraid 900 are no cure, they make one more step into bright territory, compared to 009. If you want sound to move closer to speakers, one of the most speaker-like headphones are HE-6 (alas, the're not too dark also...)
 
What do you miss now in 009 and LCD-3, what way they're not "analogue-like" enkugh?
 

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