The Stax Thread III

[bmichels]

  Ask again in a month's time )
 
I'm thinking of downsizing to a smaller transportable system.
 
Step 1: Find a very compact DAC with a great integrated headphone amp. Achieved with DAVE.
 
Step 2: Find a dynamics headphone that sounds anywhere near as good as my BHSE/009. So far failed miserably, but I'll be auditioning the latest crop of TOTL models, including Utopia. as soon as they're all in at the same time, same place, which the dealer reckoned would be in first half of October.
 
I wouldn't hold your breath on this one. In the unlikely event I do get swayed by the Utopia or whatever, I may still keep the BHSE just so that I can look at it as a work of art ) 

 
Try WOO Audio WA8 + Focal Utopia.   A very nice transportable set-up
 
At home I have BHSE + SR009 (my "home end-game") and, like TheAttorney, I am looking now for my ultimate transportable set-up.

 

[bigfatpaulie]

  Ask again in a month's time )
 
I'm thinking of downsizing to a smaller transportable system.
 
Step 1: Find a very compact DAC with a great integrated headphone amp. Achieved with DAVE.
 
Step 2: Find a dynamics headphone that sounds anywhere near as good as my BHSE/009. So far failed miserably, but I'll be auditioning the latest crop of TOTL models, including Utopia. as soon as they're all in at the same time, same place, which the dealer reckoned would be in first half of October.
 
I wouldn't hold your breath on this one. In the unlikely event I do get swayed by the Utopia or whatever, I may still keep the BHSE just so that I can look at it as a work of art ) 

 
I feel like you and I are on the same road, just going in different directions.  I've been seriously contemplating getting INTO Stax and here you are trying to leave.  I am very curious to see where you land.

 

[rgs9200m]

My KGSShv mini I bought from someone here in the low $2K area sounds so good it's the best bargain I ever got in audio. I'd feel it would still be a bargain at twice that. (I use an SR007 mk2 mostly, sometimes an 009).
It really gets to the root of the music; all truth and beauty. And when you consider there is no tube expense, it's even more of a value.
 
I actually find you need to spend more to get a dynamic system that sounds really good, usually with tube rolling expense.
Deciding which is better overall is almost a meaningless argument, since the Stax setup sounds very different from non-Stax, very unique. Never the twain shall meet you know...
 
Personally, I like to devote more resources to a DAC rather than trying to go beyond the KGSShv, since this amp already sounds so fine to me.
The Stax setup lets me know every fine point of what the DAC/cables/recordings involved are, and it benefits mightily from this upstream input.
So in that sense, the Stax+KGSShv combo is, essentially endgame to my ears and budget.
 
[edit: Oddly, I feel that a really good tube amp with top-notch DAC (and cables) with a Senn HD650 or 600 may be state of the art for dynamics (or any not Stax phone).
I know this is controversial, but that's what my ears tell me.]

 

[paradoxper]

The "problem" is Birgir. He is the most prevalent builder with the most accessible choices. However, he is not the only builder out there. The focus has always been on, say, Stax 007tII or 727 and their entry pricing comparative to what a KGSSHV can be had for, which is the $2k-ish range. At that, you're asking a few hundred here or there for a HV build over a new or even secondhand Stax amplifier.

 

[mulveling]

That is partly my point, is it not? You are using the example of GS-X Mk2, which I know many people hate with the hd800, too rough, too bright. (Apart from the imo that SS amps suck on HD800)
 
There are 100s of other alternatives, in both tube and SS, to use with HD800, correct? ... Basing that judgement on one amp pairing, with who knows what dac... hmmm...
I've listened to 10+ really good amps with hd800, only two have beat the 009/Carbon setup for me. In that same vain, again, many choices I have not tried, that could or could not be good. I have choices though!

Well, to be fair I could also say that I'd pick a 009/KGSShv over almost any dynamic setup I've heard, and I've heard a lot over the years, through my collection and Purk's. And I'll easily pick 009/BHSE over any dynamic setup I've ever heard. Yes, I like the HD800 better on warmer amps than the GS-X Mk2, but under no circumstances/systems do I fall in love with that headphone (Sennheiser: it's time for you to do better). 
 
Perhaps the new Utopia is good enough that I'll have to stop being so dismissive of the dynamic world again -- I'd love to hear one, and I still own a couple of pretty good dynamic amps (tube and SS), presently collecting dust. What I'd like for the Utopia to be is a Qualia 010 on top & bottom, and something like an R10, 009, or he90 in the midrange (soundstage can be either huge like Qualia/R10/HD800 or moderate like 009; I don't care too much there) -- but that's asking an awful lot from one dynamic.

 

[purk]

  Well, to be fair I could also say that I'd pick a 009/KGSShv over almost any dynamic setup I've heard, and I've heard a lot over the years, through my collection and Purk's. And I'll easily pick 009/BHSE over any dynamic setup I've ever heard. Yes, I like the HD800 better on warmer amps than the GS-X Mk2, but under no circumstances/systems do I fall in love with that headphone (Sennheiser: it's time for you to do better). 
 
Perhaps the new Utopia is good enough that I'll have to stop being so dismissive of the dynamic world again -- I'd love to hear one, and I still own a couple of pretty good dynamic amps (tube and SS), presently collecting dust. What I'd like for the Utopia to be is a Qualia 010 on top & bottom, and something like an R10, 009, or he90 in the midrange (soundstage can be either huge like Qualia/R10/HD800 or moderate like 009; I don't care too much there) -- but that's asking an awful lot from one dynamic.

Take one for the team.  I will have my Susy Dynahi waiting for us to do a comparison.

 

[3X0]

Like you, I have tried several amplifiers with the HD800, including the GS-X MKII, SuSy Dynahi, ECP DSHA-2 & L2, Apex Peak & Vocano, Questyle Monoblock, and HR Balanced Home w/ a Max module and at the end of day I always prefer my KGSSHV 500v/450v over the HD800 system.

I'd recommend trying:
1. a few other dynamic amps (perhaps with tubes)
2. Focal Utopia
3. HD 6X0
 
In any combination.
 
Doesn't suffer from the issues the 009+HV (tone, harmonics, upper-midrange/lower-treble glare) have that are unacceptable for the typical cost of admission.

 

[mulveling]

  I'd recommend trying:
1. a few other dynamic amps (perhaps with tubes)
2. Focal Utopia
3. HD 6X0
 
In any combination.
 
Doesn't suffer from the issues the 009+HV (tone, harmonics, upper-midrange/lower-treble glare) have that are unacceptable for the typical cost of admission.

1. Very few people on earth have as extensive experience with high-end dynamic amps as Purk -- it's a lot more than what he listed there. There's simply no "unicorn" amp that's going to change our opinion of the HD800 vs. 009/he90. I'm of the opinion that the SDS XLR made it sound as good as it's gonna get, and I still didn't love it. 
 
2. The Utopia is definitely an interesting new entry that deserves an audition. Maybe Purk will go in 50/50 on one with me!
 
3. Purk and I both owned/enjoyed the HD 6X0, over many years (longer than we've been friends), and we like them a lot for the price BUT they're absolutely not competitive with the top 'stats 
 
I could equally recommend for you to hear the 009 with different HV implementations, since the sound actually varies quite a lot between the various versions. The newer "minis" tend to cause problems on the top end of the spectrum (e.g. the glare you referenced), and I don't think they're a good buy for use with the 009 (007 Mk I is a different story). The sonic opposite of this would be the full-size 450V Sanyo builds; very warm and relaxed up top -- and of course that amp is good for the 009 but not so much the 007 Mk I (too warm/dark).

 

[purk]

  I'd recommend trying:
1. a few other dynamic amps (perhaps with tubes)
2. Focal Utopia
3. HD 6X0
 
In any combination.
 
Doesn't suffer from the issues the 009+HV (tone, harmonics, upper-midrange/lower-treble glare) have that are unacceptable for the typical cost of admission.

1.  I had SDS-XLR at one point and that was a superb sounding amp.  The closest my HD800 or my other dynamics ever get to my top-end stax rig.
2.  So you like the Utopia better than the SR009?  I have the HE90 and they are my favorite headphones so far.  I'm trying to convince Muveling to take one for the team!
3.  I actually love my HD650 and they were superbly great out of my SDS-XLR, still no HD800.  The HD800 simply scale better.
 
I think we just have to agree that we are a bit differ in term of our preference.  

 

[comzee]

Can we quantify "better"?
 
One thing that got me to switch, was finding out my HD800 had the capability of more microdetail.
 
I used a Lehmann BCL for awhile on my HD800, great pairing. Although nobodies going to say it's a super transparent amp.
 
A quick note on words too, transparency/resolution/microdetail are all synonymous for me. 
The meaning for me is simple, what is the detail extraction level from the source material.
 
For me with the HD800, I heard background vocals that had real tangible echos, and reverberations, that I simply could not hear on the 009/Carbon system.
On one song I always thought it had a background electronic synthesizer, NO, it was actually a vocoded human voice.
 
For that one song I noticed the synthesizer versus vocoded human voice, I had my roommate confirm that with me too.
009/Carbon couldn't extract the nuance.
 
Just keep in mind, my HD800 only had more resolution than the 009/Carbon with really good amps.
The 009/Carbon for me blew away the HD800 in 3D sound placement. This is murky water in regards to word usage, but the 009/Carbon "hit" harder to me, whatever you want to make of that.
 
It does come down to preference, for me the nuances outweigh the pros of 009/Carbon.
I can't speak on Stax as a whole, such as DIY-T2/BHSE/007 that I've never heard, I'll put that out there. 

 

[purk]

If you don't mind me asking, who built your Carbon?  I think it is the case that you prefer one headphones over another and maybe not the amp.

 

[JimL11]

 
Let me think off the top of my head what's out there for Stax amps:
Stax stock amps
Kevin Gilmore amps
BHSE
DIY-t2 (not readily available to the public) 
 
What's out there for regular HP amps:
As we all know, too many to list, and at every price range.
 
More competition means better performance at lower prices.
When every forum online is sh!tting on Stax amps, the BHSE is months wait time for a high price, DIY-T2 is basically unobtanium, you're left with one option, Kevin Gilmore designs.
 
I don't care if parts to Iceland are more expensive, or what labor costs are, in my opinion KG amps are overpriced for the performance they deliver to comparative dynamic offerings. 
Burn me at the stake, w/e. Also, anybody can cherry pick numbers out their butt for price v.s. performance. The simple fact is that there are 100's of more competitive offerings in the dynamic driver space in regards to amps.
 
I think a DIY-T2 + 007/009/Omega has the potential to best any dynamic headphone system in the world.
This means when talking $$ out of the equation, I still love Stax, I love their SQ, their specific signature. Since I'm not in the 1%, I can't personally justify. 
 
This is why I'll stick with my srs-002 kit (which I love). 

So, not sure what your point is.  Stat headphones are a niche market, a small fraction of the overall headphone market.  There are also a lot more non-stat headphone manufacturers, so it makes sense that with a much larger market for dynamic amps, with a much larger range of prices.
 
The major manufacturer of stat amps is, of course, Stax.  And the price of them includes a cut for shippers, distributors, retail sellers, etc.  Technically these are quite sophisticated, however they all have simple passive power supplies.  Less expensive amps such as Kingsound are also significantly less competent, based on published schematics.  KG amps all have regulated power supplies,which is a significant increase in cost, and stat amps generally need to use high voltage parts, which are more expensive, and also need more parts to achieve their goals, specifically due to that high voltage requirement.  When you compare the price of KG amps to commercial Stax amps, the cost is very reasonable in my opinion.  Comparing prices with dynamic amps is an apples to oranges comparison.  It's like comparing the price of a Kia sedan to a Porsche sports car and saying the Porsche is overpriced because they are both cars.

 

[comzee]

  It's like comparing the price of a Kia sedan to a Porsche sports car and saying the Porsche is overpriced because they are both cars.

I agree with everything except the quoted part, well said. I have a tough time articulating.
That part quoted, is my "gotchya" though. I believe at the highest end dynamic it's completely unfair to say they are "Kia".
I believe it does come down to preference, and HD800 does some things better (the things I like), and the 009/Carbon for sure did other things better.
 
That means to me, it's more akin to Ferrari vs Lamborghini.
Let us say for just for this example, a man is comparing a $500k Ferrari v.s. a $150 Lambo. (009 v.s. HD800)
Many would chose the $500k Ferrari, but I'm sure some of us have seen British Top Gear?
When they review a Lambo, they talk about its raw power, how savage it feels, Lambo has "its own" signature.
 
Many might chose the Ferrari, some might chose the Lambo, one is $500k, the other is $150k, that's what I'm trying to articulate.
 
I think to say Stax is "better" is a blanket statement, and an ill thought out one. I believe they can be to a much greater preference to some, but do not universally best every aspect of the hd800.

 

[JimL11]

Yes, you are correct, at the top end it is preference.  My overall point is that stat amps are generally intrinsically more expensive than comparable dynamic amps due to parts costs and the need for more parts in general.  Also, Stax is a good comparison point for baseline costs as they have never been a lets gold plate it and stick to the consumer type company.  I believe they charge fair prices for what they sell, and so comparing a more sophisticated KG amp price to them is reasonable, whereas comparing a KG amp  price to a dynamic amp is very difficult because of intrinsic differences in technology - that is the point of the Kia to Porsche compare.

 

[hardpike]

I just love this thread.... period