[aphex27]

Which part didn't you quite get Joseph?

 

[astrostar59]

  I didn't apologise
Anyway doesn't matter, so back on topic..
 
I think you're maybe being a bit hyperbolic..you really think an amp makes that much of a difference?
I remember seeing a blind test from some French guys on this thread last year and the 727 did pretty well against much more expensive amps..to be honest, the preference seemed random to me.
At best I can think that source accounts for 70% and headphones for 30%.
At worst, source 70%, headphones 29.5%, amp 0.5%, dac 0%, cables 0%.

I think you mean the review gang which included Arnauld who now has the BHSE. Yes, a tube power amp with a transformer can be better than a Stax amp but it is not designed for that, and is risky and a waste of money / wrong route unless you already have a tube power amp.
 
I can say categorically, the Stax amps don't drive the 009s or the 007s well as any of the KG desings I have heard. They are way behind IMO. To get a better idea, I recommend getting hold of someone who has a KGSShv or demo an LL2. The 009 scales so well it is incredible. It is the voltage swing, the current, the components, the design of the amp, everything. The Stax amps are ok for the Lambdas maybe, or the 507 and down. Though, having said that the 507 on a KGSShv comes alive as well.
 
It is an odd ball, it is not like speaker amps, where as you say the difference is smaller possibly. Anyway, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's, get a demo or get to a meet. It is another world beyond the Stax amp IMO.
 
What we have really is the 009 is comparable to a 50K+ speaker, and must have a great amp and source. Otherwise it is ruthless, and of course strangled at the same time. And lets face it, kind of annoying as well, as you have found out.....

 

[joseph69]

  Which part didn't you quite get Joseph?

I don't get your percentage priority…headphones/speaker are always first priority.
Amplifiers/DAC's definitely make a difference.

 

[astrostar59]

  I don't get your percentage priority…headphones/speaker are always first priority.
Amplifiers/DAC's definitely make a difference.

Agree. If we put am amazing speaker on the end of a weak DAC or amplifier it will sound awful. Basically it will revel the systems warts and all, making for a fatiguing and enjoyable experience.
 
Most of the better manufacturers design levels of components that compliment each other. I know what I will get now, every compliment should be transparent  etc etc. But in the real world and in budget constants it doesn't happen.
 
I say again, get a demo or to a meet. Your ears do the deciding. Clearly offering advice if it doesn't give the answer he wants, will get attacked / discredited. Lost cause I feel....

 

[joseph69]

 
Agree. If we put am amazing speaker on the end of a weak DAC or amplifier it will sound awful. Basically it will revel the systems warts and all, making for a fatiguing and enjoyable experience.
 
Most of the better manufacturers design levels of components that compliment each other. I know what I will get now, every compliment should be transparent  etc etc. But in the real world and in budget constants it doesn't happen.
 
I say again, get a demo or to a meet. Your ears do the deciding. Clearly offering advice if it doesn't give the answer he wants, will get attacked / discredited. Lost cause I feel....

Its always been first priority for HP's/speakers then build upstream to compliment accordingly. Lesson 101!

 

[Ali-Pacha]

Modded 727 is better than 717. Deal with it 

 
Ali

 

[soren_brix]

  So anyway, my chain is MacBook->Macintosh D100->SRM727II->SR-009
 
The Mcintosh is a preamplifier with a DAC inside. To be honest I have no idea if the amplification part is utilised when I connect it to the SRM727 or if it is bypassed.

Look here for a brief summary of 717/727/KGSS, and from the Dr. Gilmore himself here if you want a bit of fact rather.

 

[rgs9200m]

Yeah, the KGSShv is leagues ahead of the Stax (007t/II in my case) on both the SR007 and SR009. (Personal experience here. Using Birgir's mini version.)

 

[AnakChan]

 
I think you mean the review gang which included Arnauld who now has the BHSE. Yes, a tube power amp with a transformer can be better than a Stax amp but it is not designed for that, and is risky and a waste of money / wrong route unless you already have a tube power amp.
 
I can say categorically, the Stax amps don't drive the 009s or the 007s well as any of the KG desings I have heard. They are way behind IMO. To get a better idea, I recommend getting hold of someone who has a KGSShv or demo an LL2. The 009 scales so well it is incredible. It is the voltage swing, the current, the components, the design of the amp, everything. The Stax amps are ok for the Lambdas maybe, or the 507 and down. Though, having said that the 507 on a KGSShv comes alive as well.
 
It is an odd ball, it is not like speaker amps, where as you say the difference is smaller possibly. Anyway, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's, get a demo or get to a meet. It is another world beyond the Stax amp IMO.
 
What we have really is the 009 is comparable to a 50K+ speaker, and must have a great amp and source. Otherwise it is ruthless, and of course strangled at the same time. And lets face it, kind of annoying as well, as you have found out.....

 
There's been a few tests by eric65 & his friends in the French forum 2 years ago. @arnaud provided a translation of that here, and back then he hadn't had the BHSE yet.
 
On the other hand, if @aphex27 was referring to a test this year after arnaud had received his BHSE, that test was performed in Tokyo in late June and I was a party to that test (along with @Donnyhifi & @Wallabee. In that test we had a BHSE, KGST, Electra, and SRM-007tA. DACs used were the TotalDAC, Invicta (v1.0), Master 7, and Lavry DA11. The tests were controlled by Arnaud - (i.e. one DAC feeding into all amps, each amp was volume matched to the other, etc.). We had some "old" SR-009s and a newly purchased SR-009, an "old" SR-007a, SR-007Mk1 pre-Z and Z versions.

Hereafter it would be -my- thoughts about the tests. Arnaud's BHSE felt it was a big improvement over both the Electra & KGST. The BHSE just did everything "better" over the other two - it sounded more "effortless" in creating the bigger sound. To me personally, tonal FR the Electra & BHSE were grouped together (but not the same, the Electra had more midrange bloat but somehow a little dry), whilst the KGST was somewhat more relaxed and somewhat more "Hi-Fi"-ish.

Both the BHSE and the KGST bested over the Electra in terms of musicality but overall, the BHSE seemed a distant #1 on its own whilst the KGST & Electra were  closer #2 & #3 respectively. However, I think the tables between the KGST & Electra could turn from tube-rolling. I recently changed the Stage 1 & 2 on the Electra and really enjoying it immensely. I hope I can convince my colleagues for another shoot out.

At the end of the 1/2 day session, I felt the BHSE was justified in it's reputation although the long wait times and its QC in Arnaud's case concerned me. The KGST to be honest was a little bit of a let down. After all the talk about KG designs, I expected more from it. The Electra, I think is somewhat versatile with tube rolling - not being a hybrid there's lots that can be played with it. Whilst I don't think it'll ever best the BHSE, I think it's a firm competitor to the KGST at least - I can't speak for the KGSSHv nor Carbon as I have no experience on them. I do have hopes to build the Carbon though.
 
And, my final thoughts about the SRM-727A of which both Arnaud & I had owned for many years. Can't speak for Arnaud,  but personally for me, I think it's a decent -to start off- amp. Was it so bad that it made me want to sell my SR-009? Nope. I enjoyed my SR-009 then as I do now. I didn't and wouldn't stomp on the SRM-727A as it served me well for the 20 months I had it.

 

[Pokemonn]

  What we have really is the 009 is comparable to a 50K+ speaker, 

After I read this, i re-ordered a SR-009 which i once sold......lol
and I noticed SR-009 need EQing a bit after checking SR009 FR graph today.
I will post my EQ setting on 009 later.

 

[astrostar59]

 
At the end of the 1/2 day session, I felt the BHSE was justified in it's reputation although the long wait times and its QC in Arnaud's case concerned me. The KGST to be honest was a little bit of a let down. After all the talk about KG designs, I expected more from it. The Electra, I think is somewhat versatile with tube rolling - not being a hybrid there's lots that can be played with it. Whilst I don't think it'll ever best the BHSE, I think it's a firm competitor to the KGST at least - I can't speak for the KGSSHv nor Carbon as I have no experience on them. I do have hopes to build the Carbon though.
 
And, my final thoughts about the SRM-727A of which both Arnaud & I had owned for many years. Can't speak for Arnaud,  but personally for me, I think it's a decent -to start off- amp. Was it so bad that it made me want to sell my SR-009? Nope. I enjoyed my SR-009 then as I do now. I didn't and wouldn't stomp on the SRM-727A as it served me well for the 20 months I had it.

Lots of great in depth detail here, thanks. I have the KGSShv and have listened to it alongside David1961s BHSE for a full day session on tracks I know really well. The source was an Esoteric K-01 and the BHSE had Mullards XF4s in the second session, the first session PS Vanes all with the 009s.
 
They are both really great amps. I agree, the BHSE was number one, but not in all areas. That is often the case with hifi I guess. It's midrange was superb (tubes?) and the soundstage wider than my KGSShv. However the bass on my amp was a bit stinger, and strangely the overall signature of the KGSShv is warmer than the BHSE, maybe as my amp has the Sanyo parts? Maybe on some systems with there 009 it may calm the treble energy a bit. I came away from both sessions very happy that my amp was up there with such a great amp as the BHSE. One of my reasons for going solid state was tube hassles and I can leave it on all day which suits my lifestyle. However, if I was loaded I would have both amps! (who wouldn't). TBH you can't go wrong with either IMO. 

 

[nassq8]

(Personal experience here. Using Birgir's mini version.)

 


I sold it (Black mini-KGSShv)! That was one of many stupid decisions I've made recently

 

[aphex27]

   
There's been a few tests by eric65 & his friends in the French forum 2 years ago. @arnaud provided a translation of that here, and back then he hadn't had the BHSE yet.
 
On the other hand, if @aphex27 was referring to a test this year after arnaud had received his BHSE, that test was performed in Tokyo in late June and I was a party to that test (along with @Donnyhifi & @Wallabee. In that test we had a BHSE, KGST, Electra, and SRM-007tA. DACs used were the TotalDAC, Invicta (v1.0), Master 7, and Lavry DA11. The tests were controlled by Arnaud - (i.e. one DAC feeding into all amps, each amp was volume matched to the other, etc.). We had some "old" SR-009s and a newly purchased SR-009, an "old" SR-007a, SR-007Mk1 pre-Z and Z versions.

Hereafter it would be -my- thoughts about the tests. Arnaud's BHSE felt it was a big improvement over both the Electra & KGST. The BHSE just did everything "better" over the other two - it sounded more "effortless" in creating the bigger sound. To me personally, tonal FR the Electra & BHSE were grouped together (but not the same, the Electra had more midrange bloat but somehow a little dry), whilst the KGST was somewhat more relaxed and somewhat more "Hi-Fi"-ish.

Both the BHSE and the KGST bested over the Electra in terms of musicality but overall, the BHSE seemed a distant #1 on its own whilst the KGST & Electra were  closer #2 & #3 respectively. However, I think the tables between the KGST & Electra could turn from tube-rolling. I recently changed the Stage 1 & 2 on the Electra and really enjoying it immensely. I hope I can convince my colleagues for another shoot out.

At the end of the 1/2 day session, I felt the BHSE was justified in it's reputation although the long wait times and its QC in Arnaud's case concerned me. The KGST to be honest was a little bit of a let down. After all the talk about KG designs, I expected more from it. The Electra, I think is somewhat versatile with tube rolling - not being a hybrid there's lots that can be played with it. Whilst I don't think it'll ever best the BHSE, I think it's a firm competitor to the KGST at least - I can't speak for the KGSSHv nor Carbon as I have no experience on them. I do have hopes to build the Carbon though.
 
And, my final thoughts about the SRM-727A of which both Arnaud & I had owned for many years. Can't speak for Arnaud,  but personally for me, I think it's a decent -to start off- amp. Was it so bad that it made me want to sell my SR-009? Nope. I enjoyed my SR-009 then as I do now. I didn't and wouldn't stomp on the SRM-727A as it served me well for the 20 months I had it.

Ah, thanks! I was indeed referring to the test 2 years ago. I wasn't aware of the second one. Could you direct me to it? Thanks

 

[David1961]

They are both really great amps. I agree, the BHSE was number one, but not in all areas. One of my reasons for going solid state was tube hassles and I can leave it on all day which suits my lifestyle. However, if I was loaded I would have both amps! (who wouldn't). TBH you can't go wrong with either IMO. 

One of the reasons I plan on getting a KGSSHV Carbon Julian, is because I feel ( like you ) SS amps can be left on without worries, whereas I'd never leave the BHSE on unattended.

Regarding the K-01, as you know I no longer have it, but I'm not missing that source because the DAC I now have is extremely good, and to say it cost me £1850, it's without doubt the best bargain I've come across in audio, and by some margin.

 

[astrostar59]

One of the reasons I plan on getting a KGSSHV Carbon Julian, is because I feel ( like you ) SS amps can be left on without worries, whereas I'd never leave the BHSE on unattended.

Regarding the K-01, as you know I no longer have it, but I'm not missing that source because the DAC I now have is extremely good, and to say it cost me £1850, it's without doubt the best bargain I've come across in audio, and by some margin.

Yes, the Yggy sounds like a winner form what you and many others have said. I wonder what else there is 'out there' beyond this point in a DAC? I have one last tweak to my Audio Note DAC 4.1, then it is maxed out, I can't do more to it. It is already superb. I can imagine that CH Precision C1 was 'better' as is an MSB IV stack and a Nagra, it goes on and on. But my question is, by how much are they better. I have a theory / idea that your brain gets used to the new increase in sound quality, and it becomes the norm, a new reality. And like a nice looking car, looks wear off, and the sound may to become no big deal anymore. And of course, those rogue tracks many of which were mastered in the 90's and sound so horrible will still sound, well horrible... No DAC in the world no matter how good will make those badly recorded albums sound good IMO. In fact, the gap between the best recordings and the worst just gets even wider. But those great recordings, they are something.
 
I think it comes down to the idea that we are missing something, a tiny bit of detail maybe, or an extra bit of realism to the illusion of a hifi playing real music. I have nearly pulled the trigger on a few occasions on an Audio Note DAC 5 going second hand for £12K, and there is a C1 on Audiogon right now for 20K USD also tempting. But we have to stop somewhere and just enjoy the music, or bankruptcy will result! Now to go back and chill out to some Rammstein.