The Reference 6SN7 Thread

Jan 31, 2025 at 7:46 AM Post #10,471 of 10,668
Devils advocate here, tried some early 60s matched Jan WGTA Sylvanias a few weeks ago. They are nice enough, but honestly nothing special jumped out at me. Bass was a bit light and muddled, but otherwise less interesting and with less character than other 50s NOS or budget new production.

The question really should be: do I want modern tubes that have characteristics of NOS without the many defects, do I want to experience and try out many inexpensive, flawed NOS tubes for fun, or do I want to spend a gazillion $ on iconic tubes that can only realistically be purchased as used and while good++ aren't the last tubes you will buy?


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ray, higher end shugggies and psvane and linlai are all more expensive than run of the mill old stock tubes.

as many of us hav found out, then question really is do we want to buy new boutique at sky high prices with all the defects and premature failures? they may sound dgood, but psvane horizon is rampant with defects, and with their newest art series, theyve been busted sending the tubes out with bogus testing information. apos ray, supposedly had screened for this, is getting noise returns.
 
Jan 31, 2025 at 12:02 PM Post #10,474 of 10,668
What are some very high resolution 6sN7's? I'm looking to pair with my Feliks Envy with TM300B's.
Mullard ECC33 is one I always come back to, even with all kinds of adapter options like 6J5, CV6, c3g, 5A/152M and top tier ones without adapters like Melz 1578. Detail, musicality, sweet tone, huge stage with the ECC33 and a bit more gain than true 6SN7.
 
Jan 31, 2025 at 12:30 PM Post #10,476 of 10,668
I actually prefer the ladder plate versions. They made 6sn7 with ladder plates and people really like them. I haven’t heard those but one of my favorites in this type of tube is the Raytheon 12j5wgt which also has the ladder plates. They are very good at detail retrieval but I think the Sylvania round tube 6j5gt are better. Incidentally, it was the realization that the round plate Sylvanias bested the vaunted “Bad Boy” 6sn7 that made me realize what a deal single triodes are.
 
Jan 31, 2025 at 6:01 PM Post #10,479 of 10,668
Appreciate the replies! I think under the right circumstances a lot of the views expressed could be valid. Similarly, I'd like to venture into viewpoints that don't really get much expression in tube forums.

RE Chinese reliability. This cracks me up, because false information is constantly spread on the internet and becomes accepted. If you look at publications from the height of 6sn7 tube production the failure rates are terrible.
https://ethw.org/First-Hand:Tube_Manufacturing_at_Sylvania First paragraph, scrap rates 30-40%!!!! Sure they brought it down over time, but to what level? Many manufacturers ran the same equipment for decades, which would inherently limit quality improvements. Also, tubes are inherently fragile, and rely on very narrow tolerances to decide if they live or die. Hey, so do light bulbs! The thing is, you don't see the NOS scrap rate as a tube buyer because all the scrap has been invisibly filtered out by time (handling, transport, less than ideal conditions), and tube screeners. Does anyone really believe that the 70 year old tube available today is even remotely representative of historic production? Check out any forum of old timers who remember regularly popping down to the hardware store to pickup another tube because the last went bad or failed.

If anything, operating in low margin, internationally competitive markets for a tiny niche market would necessitate low scrap rates and tighter tolerances for modern tubes. People can gripe about their bad experiences, but it isn't representative. I have found a few bad mentions for the Linlai e6sn7 tubes, and many resounding thumbs up. Current serial numbers are ~25,000+. From a manufacturing perspective for a niche market, those are enviable numbers. Obviously we don't know the actual numbers and warranty returns, but what info is available points to the opposite conclusion. Psvane is obviously much larger, and will have more individual instances of people reporting failures.

As far as branding and screening goes, this is common practice in open market manufacturing and regional targeting. Whether there is actually a difference or not is the question. Some retailers say there is, others are very careful to say a lot of things and make no claims whatsoever. NONE of them actually provide actual measurements in comparison to the ideal 6SN7 and prove that their marketing claims reflect reality. There is nothing proprietary about what they do, and contract agreements would protect their access to supply if it was known. I am highly skeptical that there is any merit to the process. Much of what is claimed about the screening tolerances would point to longer operation of the tube (if I am reading historical tube design info correctly), but given that tubes just sound worse over time regardless, I would rather skip the astounding markup and marketing costs in favor of having double the tubes. But hey, people make purchase decisions according to their emotional needs all the time. If that is what works for them I'm not going to complain and neither is the business. Their goal is to extract the most money possible for their investment and time, and the market react accordingly to what it perceives as value.

I have followed the top recommended NOS tube sellers over the last year, comparing inventory levels and pricing. They are out of stock on nearly everything worth pursuing, and the pricing indicates the market is dried up. $200- 800 a pair, if they ever come back in stock? Look back to early 2000's forums and you will see that the most consistently recommended tubes were becoming hard to find and pricey. Sure with a quality rebuilt tester that has been professionally calibrated ($1500 ish for a full featured hickok?), multiple purchases (and losses reselling), and the cost of your time, you could find nice sets of NOS tubes from private sellers. Be honest though, this would be at great expense. Not an argument against pursuing NOS tubes, but it probably isn't worth it for most people to even consider. The micro economics indicates the market has been cleaned out for quite some time, and it isn't a great place to be spending money without context.

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Jan 31, 2025 at 7:46 PM Post #10,480 of 10,668
Appreciate the replies! I think under the right circumstances a lot of the views expressed could be valid. Similarly, I'd like to venture into viewpoints that don't really get much expression in tube forums.

RE Chinese reliability. This cracks me up, because false information is constantly spread on the internet and becomes accepted. If you look at publications from the height of 6sn7 tube production the failure rates are terrible.
https://ethw.org/First-Hand:Tube_Manufacturing_at_Sylvania First paragraph, scrap rates 30-40%!!!! Sure they brought it down over time, but to what level? Many manufacturers ran the same equipment for decades, which would inherently limit quality improvements. Also, tubes are inherently fragile, and rely on very narrow tolerances to decide if they live or die. Hey, so do light bulbs! The thing is, you don't see the NOS scrap rate as a tube buyer because all the scrap has been invisibly filtered out by time (handling, transport, less than ideal conditions), and tube screeners. Does anyone really believe that the 70 year old tube available today is even remotely representative of historic production? Check out any forum of old timers who remember regularly popping down to the hardware store to pickup another tube because the last went bad or failed.

If anything, operating in low margin, internationally competitive markets for a tiny niche market would necessitate low scrap rates and tighter tolerances for modern tubes. People can gripe about their bad experiences, but it isn't representative. I have found a few bad mentions for the Linlai e6sn7 tubes, and many resounding thumbs up. Current serial numbers are ~25,000+. From a manufacturing perspective for a niche market, those are enviable numbers. Obviously we don't know the actual numbers and warranty returns, but what info is available points to the opposite conclusion. Psvane is obviously much larger, and will have more individual instances of people reporting failures.

As far as branding and screening goes, this is common practice in open market manufacturing and regional targeting. Whether there is actually a difference or not is the question. Some retailers say there is, others are very careful to say a lot of things and make no claims whatsoever. NONE of them actually provide actual measurements in comparison to the ideal 6SN7 and prove that their marketing claims reflect reality. There is nothing proprietary about what they do, and contract agreements would protect their access to supply if it was known. I am highly skeptical that there is any merit to the process. Much of what is claimed about the screening tolerances would point to longer operation of the tube (if I am reading historical tube design info correctly), but given that tubes just sound worse over time regardless, I would rather skip the astounding markup and marketing costs in favor of having double the tubes. But hey, people make purchase decisions according to their emotional needs all the time. If that is what works for them I'm not going to complain and neither is the business. Their goal is to extract the most money possible for their investment and time, and the market react accordingly to what it perceives as value.

I have followed the top recommended NOS tube sellers over the last year, comparing inventory levels and pricing. They are out of stock on nearly everything worth pursuing, and the pricing indicates the market is dried up. $200- 800 a pair, if they ever come back in stock? Look back to early 2000's forums and you will see that the most consistently recommended tubes were becoming hard to find and pricey. Sure with a quality rebuilt tester that has been professionally calibrated ($1500 ish for a full featured hickok?), multiple purchases (and losses reselling), and the cost of your time, you could find nice sets of NOS tubes from private sellers. Be honest though, this would be at great expense. Not an argument against pursuing NOS tubes, but it probably isn't worth it for most people to even consider. The micro economics indicates the market has been cleaned out for quite some time, and it isn't a great place to be spending money without context.

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They are out of stock on nearly everything worth pursuing…” is just silly. If by worth pursuing you mean the particular models collectors pursue then sure. If you mean good sounding 6sn7 then $200 a pair is pretty expensive. And once again, buying from decent sellers means you don’t have to buy your own tester or scrounge for pairs. NOS 6sn7 does not have to mean GEC b65 or Telefunken. RCA 6sn7gtb or just about any 7n7 are quality tubes and are still readily available at much lower prices than the now super rare ones. And of course they are less expensive than the Chinese ones touted on here as well. I’ll admit to being as bad a cork sniffer as anyone here when it comes to tubes but when it comes to just enjoying music plenty of cheap tubes get the job done.

And yes, actual NOS as in never tested or used is no guarantee that they will be good. General consensus does seem to point towards older tubes being more reliable and lasting longer than current Chinese tubes once you have weeded out the bad ones, something that a good dealer will do.

To be clear, I don’t have anything against the Chinese tubes. I have no beef with people that like the sound of them. Arguing that they are a good deal compared to “NOS” still seems silly to me. Yes, they are probably a better deal than $200 a pair tubes to say nothing of $400 a pair but c’mon. As long as you can buy quality NOS tubes for $40-$80 a pair the likes of Linlai or PSvane are pretty expensive in comparison.

This thread in particular really skews what people think is necessary to spend in order to enjoy music.
 
Jan 31, 2025 at 8:01 PM Post #10,481 of 10,668
I saw almost 6000 listings for 6SN7 on eBay. Plenty of good testing 6SN7 out there which will be perfectly fine.
 
Jan 31, 2025 at 8:23 PM Post #10,482 of 10,668
Feb 3, 2025 at 12:34 AM Post #10,483 of 10,668
They will need an adapter. Not sure if Ike1985 wants to use adapters?
Adapters are fine, which adapter do I need for this one.

I am looking to buy Melz 1578, if anyone has any hit me up.
 
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Feb 3, 2025 at 9:48 AM Post #10,485 of 10,668
Adapters are fine, which adapter do I need for this one.

I am looking to buy Melz 1578, if anyone has any hit me up.
The Melz 1578 is basically a 6SN7, so that's what you'll need to adapt to.
 
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