[TSAVJason]

Yepe, as long as you like something for what it is, then you know you have made the correct decision, just like marriage

Oh! I guess I'm taking my next pair of headphones much more seriously

 

[Beagle]

Well said. The poor 800 get a lot of flak for the 6 kHz peak, but I find interesting how little its result was mentioned before some measurements started appearing (From Tyll, etc). After that, it suddenly became super sibilant and fatiguing, while before it was just having extreme clarity and resolution. .

Well, anyone listening heard the 6kHz peak, esp. if they came from the HD650. Some may have heard it and ignored it. But you don't need measurements to notice listening fatigue.

 

[MacedonianHero]

i can understand how more thd might make the bass seem fuller with definition suffering as a consequence, but the mimicking of sub-bass claim seems like a stretch based on my comparison and dare i say it, the measurements.

With recent measurements, I don't know what to believe anymore, LOL. That said, I've had them both here side-by-side and there is a tad more bass presence on the S version...Tyll mentioned it too that the 2nd harmonic overtones, the overall bass energy was more present...a welcomed addition to my ears as I felt the HD800 was a bit too light down low. Regardless, the elimination of the 6kHz peak was the biggest advancement as this peak was in a problematic area that caused me to avoid my HD800 headphones with certain albums.

 

[up late]

With recent measurements, I don't know what to believe anymore, LOL. That said, I've had them both here side-by-side and there is a tad more bass presence on the S version...Tyll mentioned it too that the 2nd harmonic overtones, the overall bass energy was more present...a welcomed addition to my ears as I felt the HD800 was a bit too light down low. Regardless, the elimination of the 6kHz peak was the biggest advancement as this peak was in a problematic area that caused me to avoid my HD800 headphones with certain albums.

well they're the same measurements taken by the same guy using the same measurement rig that you've been referring too for years in support of your subjective listening impressions.

as i said, I've compared them side by side too and didn't notice any increase in the hd800s' bass presence over the hd800. like naim.fc, what i did notice was a change in the overall tonal complexion, which presumably is the result of sennheiser's use of the hemholtz resonator to target the 6khz peak. the other consequence of that mod is an increase in bass distortion which might make the bass seem fuller with a loss of some definition compared to the original.

 

[MacedonianHero]

well they're the same measurements taken by the same guy using the same measurement rig that you've been referring too for years in support of your subjective listening impressions.

as i said, I've compared them side by side too and didn't notice any increase in the hd800s' bass presence over the hd800. like naim.fc, what i did notice was a change in the overall tonal complexion, which presumably is the result of sennheiser's use of the hemholtz resonator to target the 6khz peak. the other consequence of that mod is an increase in bass distortion which might make the bass seem fuller with a loss of some definition compared to the original.

Exactly...and then the ones posted didn't jive with what I was hearing really threw a wrench into things, then Jude's measurements matched more closely my experiences, so I guess I'm at a bit of an impasse now. The bass was definitely "fuller" on the "S", but again, not a stark difference, but when I played "Enter Sandman" it was noticeable on my rig and the detail and tightness was relatively equal. YMMV of course.

 

[up late]

Exactly...and then the ones posted didn't jive with what I was hearing really threw a wrench into things, then Jude's measurements matched more closely my experiences, so I guess I'm at a bit of an impasse now. The bass was definitely "fuller" on the "S", but again, not a stark difference, but when I played "Enter Sandman" it was noticeable on my rig and the detail and tightness was relatively equal. YMMV of course.

but the hd800 and hd800s measurements aren't even recent. they were taken long before this controversy over tyll's and jude's measurements of the z1r arose. and you've referred to more recent measurements taken by tyll that "jive" with your subjective impressions anyway, such as the utopia and pioneer se-m1 measurements.

you can't have it both ways by citing tyll's measurements when they align with what you hear and questioning them when they don't. that's not how objective references are meant to be used.

 

[MacedonianHero]

yes but those measurements aren't even recent. they were taken long before this controversy over tyll's and jude's measurements of the z1r arose. and you've referred to more recent measurements taken by tyll that "jive" with your subjective impressions such as the utopia and pioneer se-m1 anyway.

you can't have it both ways by citing tyll's measurements when they align with what you hear and questioning them when they don't. that's not how objective references should be used.

Why should that matter? Previously, those particular measurements seem to align with my first hand experiences (with the Utopias and SE-M1s), but the Z1Rs totally did not. So I'm not as sure anymore based in this light. I am always open to changing my mind based on new data or information (as we all should). Did something change more recently? Don't know...do you?

I've always said, ultimately listening is where "the rubber hits the road" and measurements should always be used in conjunction with first hand experiences. I've rarely had both be so different and I know what I heard on a nightly basis with my pari and it didn't match up at all. Maybe not the first time this has happened, but not this significant.

 

[nanaholic]

So after listening to nothing but the Denon D7200 for about a week, last night I went back to the Z1R and I was immediately taken aback at how much I missed the sound signature of the Z1R. The Z1R definitely sounds more open than the D7200, and I think the bass is of higher quality as well in terms of control. In contrast to the measurements the Denon actually sounds more boomy at the bass to me, I'm not sure how that works, perhaps the driver being closer to the ear in the D7200 is playing some acoustic tricks?

Oh and the comfort, so much more comfortable wearing the Z1R! This here is absolutely no contest to me here. If you say to me that I'm paying double the money just for more comfort between the Z1R and the D7200, I'll still pay for the Z1R in a heartbeat. That's how much I think the comfort of these phones differ!

I'm now a bit conflicted, the D7200 is in fact pretty darn good, especially for the price. But now I don't think it has much place in my home. Perhaps I can use it in the office, or as a travel option which the Z1R is not as suited for.

 

[Virtu Fortuna]

So after listening to nothing but the Denon D7200 for about a week, last night I went back to the Z1R and I was immediately taken aback at how much I missed the sound signature of the Z1R. The Z1R definitely sounds more open than the D7200, and I think the bass is of higher quality as well in terms of control. In contrast to the measurements the Denon actually sounds more boomy at the bass to me, I'm not sure how that works, perhaps the driver being closer to the ear in the D7200 is playing some acoustic tricks?

Oh and the comfort, so much more comfortable wearing the Z1R! This here is absolutely no contest to me here. If you say to me that I'm paying double the money just for more comfort between the Z1R and the D7200, I'll still pay for the Z1R in a heartbeat. That's how much I think the comfort of these phones differ!

I'm now a bit conflicted, the D7200 is in fact pretty darn good, especially for the price. But now I don't think it has much place in my home. Perhaps I can use it in the office, or as a travel option which the Z1R is not as suited for.

Sometimes taking a break really helps to appreciate your equipment more.

 

[up late]

You've mis-read my comments. The measurements seem to align with the Utopias and SE-M1s, but the Z1Rs totally did not. So I'm not as sure anymore based in this light. I am always open to changing my mind based on new data or information (as we all should). Did something change? Don't know?

I've always said, ultimately listening is where "the rubber hits the road" and measurements should always be used in conjunction with first hand experiences. I've rarely had both be so different and I know what I heard on a nightly basis and it didn't match up at all. Maybe not a first, but not this significant.

i haven't misread your comments. and it does matter when you use measurements in the way that you do, which is as objective evidence in support of your subjective impressions, opinions and assertions.

the reason you have cited tyll's measurements for the utopia and se-m1 is because they align with what you hear. the reason you have called his measurements into question for the z1r, hd800 and hd800s is because they don't. you are, in effect, cherry picking the data to suit yourself.

when you question the validity of his objective measurements you are doing it based on your subjective perception, which is a mistake. there is no requirement for any of the measurements to align with your subjective perception, mine or anyone else's. have you considered the possibility that you might be the biggest variable in these comparisons? so while "ultimately listening is where the rubber hits the road", "the first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool".

rather than accept that we have a difference of opinion about how we hear the hd800s' bass presence, you have repeatedly told me how you hear it as though that's going to convince me to change my impression. there's no compelling reason for us to perceive it in the same way because our hearing is different. it just so happens that naim f.c and i happen to hear it more similarly than you and I do, which brings us back to the objective measurements...

 

[Currawong]

But that is exactly it: The question is about the objective measurement. There is this belief about science amongst many that it is somehow perfect and unquestionable. I'm not saying that you have this, but with a lot of people running amateur measurement rigs, not enough people understand the actual limitations of what is being done. All MH is doing is stating his experiences, something I could suggest a number of possible reasons for, mainly connected to music. It's not as bad as some people claiming that their measurements are "not science" then claiming that their measurements show truths about headphones (ie: that they effectively are scientific) when they feel it is convenient to them.

I'm one of those people who liked the Z1R with the Kimber cable on them, to enhance the bass more. If anything, it is their strength.

 

[up late]

no that isn't it exactly. it's about the selective use of tyll's measurements.

 

[Naim.F.C]

well they're the same measurements taken by the same guy using the same measurement rig that you've been referring too for years in support of your subjective listening impressions.

as i said, I've compared them side by side too and didn't notice any increase in the hd800s' bass presence over the hd800. like naim.fc, what i did notice was a change in the overall tonal complexion, which presumably is the result of sennheiser's use of the hemholtz resonator to target the 6khz peak. the other consequence of that mod is an increase in bass distortion which might make the bass seem fuller with a loss of some definition compared to the original.

Just to clarify something, I didn't say I didn't notice any difference in bass, rather that, and I quote, "My HD800S doesn't really have any major or especially notable bass boost over my HD800" and that "Any bass difference between the two based on my own listening is very small in the grand scheme of things. Nothing I'd call especially prominent, but that's not to say I haven't felt there's no difference in the bass at all.".

If you look at my previous comparisons between all my headphones, you'll notice I did pick up on a slight bass difference, just not a huge one, but as I later mentioned, I think that could be as much down to less emphasis on highs, as any actual difference with a boost in the bass frequencies itself.

Eg "The biggest difference I'm able to tell between the two models is that the HD800S is a touch less strident in the highs, which likely allows the rest of the frequency range to shine a touch more. Eg the highs or treble are not detracting as much from the mids, lows etc, which is what perhaps gives the perception of a slightly warmer overall signature."

Just thought I'd make that clearer.

_____

P.S here's an earlier comparison where I do touch on the very slight bass or warmth difference, noted with Bonobo - We Could Forever, and Nirvana - Come As You Are. Weirdly, with the latter, I actually noted a touch more sibilance with the HD800S over the HD800. Don't ask me how or why, I only write down what I hear. But in all my comparisons, I do volume match all headphones, and A/B multiple times back and forth to confirm results.

Was going to post this in some mega comparison thread, but I'm not sure I can be bothered anymore lol. Anyway, here are some random ramblings (notes) from when I compared these headphones with a few tracks the other day. Please note all headphones were volume matched as best I could manage. I listened to each track multiple times on each headphone, back and forth, though mostly sticking to the order in which they appear below with each track.

Apologies for any bad use of language or grammar, I was literally typing as I was listening lol.



Beyerdynamic T1.1 vs Sennheiser HD800 vs Sennheiser HD800S vs Sony MDR-Z1R

----

The Weeknd - Rolling Stone

HD800 - Detailed and intricate, not hugely wide. But a tiny tiny bit sharp emphasised. Don't really feel any bass, or the faint drum oomph. Vocals a touch forward, but realistic. More studio mic than there with you. 7/10

HD800S - Still detailed, but more tonally balanced than above. Less treble emphasised. Roughly the same soundstage. Vocals a bit sweeter and more realistic, more like they're there with you, but still forward or prominent. Drums a touch more emphasised. 8.5/10

T1.1 - Detailed but more so subtly so. Maybe wider sounding than above. As above, balanced and realistic sounding, more so than HD800S due to slightly less emphasised vocals. Vocals still have a similar realism to them, maybe a hair less smooth (more sss). Drums even more emphasised than above. 9/10

Z1R - No loss of detail, maybe less sparkly than HD800, but like T1.1, has that bit more realism to it. About the same width as HD800S, but strings and drums both have more presence. A touch less air, but not dark per se, just a tiny bit warmer. Vocals similar to HD800S in emphasis, but a slight bit more weight or body. Still sound very realistic, as if the artist is there with you. 9/10

------

Radiohead - Burn the Witch

Z1R - Warm, good drum emphasis and dynamics, but a touch less air. Fairly wide sounding. Vocals realistic, but a touch too thick. Gets a tiny bit congested when it all kicks off, but very atmospheric sounding. 7.5/10

HD800S - Wider, airier than above. Symbols more emphasised. Loses some of the atmosphere and drama. Vocals still have a touch of thickness to them but better than above. Less dynamic overall than Z1R, but the sense of space does help with a different sense of occasion. Doesn't congest up when it kicks off. 8.5/10

T1.1 - A more realistic sense of intricacy than above. Symbols less emphasised or sharp. Vocals less forward, making a better overall tonal balance again. Sounds wider than HD800. Vocals still a touch thick, but blend in better to the rest of the instruments than either of the above. 9.5/10

HD800 - Similar to the HD800, but a little bit more treble emphasised. Just a touch sharper sounding, which gives separation a hair more clarity, and actually helps to keep vocals better balanced with the rest instead of being more emphasised. Perhaps a better sense of air and width. 9/10

------

Argatu' - Vinne Minerelle

T1.1 - Fairly warm, solid fairly impactful bass with some decay. Good but not amazing soundstage. Sparkle there but a tiny bit subdued and to the sides. Natural sounding, if a tiny bit congested. Good tonal balance. Vocals blend in to the rest, good realism. 8.5/10

HD800S - More sparkle and a teensy bit more transparency. Sharper sounding treble than above. Slightly larger soundstage too, plus a hair more air. Again, great tonal balance maintaining realism, though not quite as warm. Vocals blend in nicely and are not too forward. Only the bass is not quite as impactful. 8.5/10

HD800 - Sparkle is similar to T1.1's, still just a touch subdued at the sides, though symbols sharper and louder. Nice and wide. Good overall tonal balance, if a touch to the dry side. Bass not quite as present. Nice and airy. Maintains a sense of realism. Just a very small hint of sss 8/10

Z1R - Great realism of vocals and instrumental sparkle, just a hint subdued like T1.1. Notably more bass quantity and presence than others, but maintaining control and realistic decay. Fairly wide sounding. Symbols much less sharp or present. Good overall tonal balance, nothing too much or too little. Nice atmosphere and sense of drama. 9.5/10

------

Daft Punk - Recogniser

Z1R - Immense sense of occasion and atmosphere. Bold, slightly warm sound, with a bass like spread under everything that gives individual sounds a bit of additional poise, but just a hint of darkness. When the bass drops, you feel it. Almost threatening. Nice wide sounding stage, in both width and height. 9.5/10

HD800S - Still grand and dramatic, but with a greater sense of air and separation than above. Individual instruments just a hint more articulate. Really natural and honest sounding. Great sense of transparency, space and soundstage. 10/10

HD800 - As above, but just a hint leaner sounding. Not quite as natural, though still maintains excellent soundstage and separation. Micro details oddly not quite as defined or present as above. 9/10

T1.1 - Great sense of texture and micro detail. Mid bass really shines, tight, fast and responsive. Grand, and dynamic sounding. Slightly smoother than HD800S, with less sparkle and instead more liquid highs. Hint of congestion in places, but otherwise still fairly airy and wide. 9/10

------

Stateless - Matilda

HD800S - Really detailed, if just a tad too lean. Vocals realistic, just a sliver thin. Highs have a sense of sharpness and vividness to them, perhaps a tad over energised, though not sibilant. Relatively wide sounding, with strong instrumental separation. Strings, vocals etc, lack a tiny bit of additional weight or body. 7.5/10

HD800 - As above, overall too lean sounding with a tad too much sparkle or zing. Lacking a bit in bass quantity and punch, with bass drums that don't stand out enough. Leaning towards a cool or treble emphasised tonal balance that whilst detailed and with good separation, just comes off a hint overly busy. 7/10

T1.1 - A touch sweeter and more natural sounding than above, but maintaining a similar level of articulation and space. Tonally all instruments and vocals seem that little bit more honest, with treble that is not quite as lean or emphasised, but still somewhat focused on technicality over absolute liquidity. A more balanced overall presentation, with no particular frequency that is overbearing or overzealous. 9/10

Z1R - Warmer, more dynamic and more atmospheric than above. There's still a great balance and honesty to the overall signature with all instruments and vocals, but here they all have a hint of extra weight and realism. Soundstage is a little bit more intimate and spherical instead of wide, but instrumental separation and imaging is not compromised. Very natural sounding. 9.5/10

------

Bonobo - We Could Forever

T1.1 - Mids a hint recessed, plus there's a slight slant towards leanness, but overall still a great tonal balance, with nothing dominating or coming undone. Bass has decent quantity to it, but not a lot of impact. Good sense of instrumental separation with good imaging. Lots of air between sounds, and a fairly wide and open soundstage. 8/10

HD800 - Very detailed and transparent sounding. Excellent separation and individuality to instruments. Slight over sharpness and energy to highs. Mids a bit more present here, which for this track helps add dynamism. There's still a slant towards a slightly lean overall signature, which can in the build up make things seem a tad busy. Bass quantity is lacking, with little impact or presence. 7.5/10

HD800S - As above in most respects, but this time a hint warmer and less strident in the highs. Mids seem a bit more present as a result. There also seems to be just a touch more bass presence as well, which further smoothens things out. Overall tonal balance seems more accurate than above. Soundstage remains very wide and airy, and imaging notably precise. 8.5/10

Z1R - A smoother, more liquid presentation. Similar to the above, but with an even more balanced tonal representation, if a hair on the darker side. There's improved bass quantity, especially sub bass texture, which gives the overall presentation a bit more foundation, moodiness and background for added dynamics. Highs are more fluid, lacking in just a hint of energy, but instruments overall seem more true to life. 9.5/10

------

Nirvana - Come As You Are

Z1R - Beautiful, atmospheric and sumptuous with great dynamics and punchy bass presence. Vocals just a hair recessed, but very realistic sounding. Presents everything with a sense of honesty, including in the sense of staging and space that is not overly large, but believable in both width and depth, though not so much in height. 9.5/10

T1.1 - As above, but just a tiny bit leaner and airier, with just a splash of extra sparkle. Still very natural and honest sounding, with nothing that sticks out as too harsh or out of place. Bass is a bit tighter and more controlled. Vocals still a hint recessed. 9.5/10

HD800S - Similar to above, but this time vocals are a touch more prominent and sweet, but unfortunately with the rare instance of sibilance. Luckily it maintains a similar sense of honesty and naturalness throughout. If it weren't for the odd bit of annoying sibilance, I'd have given it a higher score. 8.5/10

HD800 - Very similar to the above. Slightly less bass quantity and impact, and a hint leaner overall. Sibilance less prominent than above, but highs and vocals still towing the line on being almost too hot or zingy. Vocals a touch thinner sounding. 8.5/10

------

David Bowie - Moonage Daydream

T1.1 - Really liquid, layered and dynamic sounding. Spacious, wide soundstage, with great instrumental separation and realism. Vocals also realistic, though a touch recessed, which actually allows the rest of the instruments and sounds to shine or be noticed. Great balance overall, and with good bass presence and detail too. 9.5/10

HD800 - As above, but highs are a bit more zingy and pronounced, especially at the sides. Vocals also remain ever so slightly recessed, perhaps part of the recording. Overall sound is just a hair leaner as is becoming typical of these headphones. 8.5/10

HD800S - An ever so slightly warmer version of the above. Vocals remain ever so slightly recessed (confirming it is intrinsic to the recording), but perhaps to a lesser extent than the T1.1's, and compared to the HD800 they also have a bit more body to them, adding to the sense of honesty. Soundstage also remains very wide, and details crisp and transparent. Still a tiny bit too much energy or spark in some of the highs. 9/10

Z1R - Similar to the T1.1's things sound layered and dynamic, but with even more body, punch and lushness. Vocals are a hint more forward, similar to the HD800S, but still very slightly recessed compared to the rest of the recording. Vocals however are thicker and have a more realistic weight to them. Essentially overall this is again a slightly warmer version of what is being offered by the HD800S or T1.1, but once again, surprisingly not sacrificing on separation or soundstage, only outright sparkle. What you lose in air and cleanliness, you gain in atmosphere, smoothness and addictive bass. 9.5/10

 

[up late]

Just to clarify something, I didn't say I didn't notice any difference in bass, rather that, and I quote, "My HD800S doesn't really have any major or especially notable bass boost over my HD800" and that "Any bass difference between the two based on my own listening is very small in the grand scheme of things. Nothing I'd call especially prominent, but that's not to say I haven't felt there's no difference in the bass at all.".

i didn't say that you did (please see the bolded text) and neither did i. what i said was that i didn't notice an increase in the hd800s' bass presence compared to the hd800, which i thought you agreed with.

 

[Rowethren]

If people are trying to use science as an unequivocal fact then they clearly don't understand how scientific theory works. The very best case is there is strong evidence to support your theory but you can never actually prove without a doubt that something is a fact which is why statistics is such an important tool as you have to calculate your data to see if it is statistically significant or not. In some situations a statistically significant result might not even by over 50% confidence.