[up late]

That's why I prefer the HD800S to the HD800...the added bass was very much welcomed...as was the disappearance of the 6kHz spike. That said, my Z1Rs still get quite a bit more head-time.

i found the difference in bass presence between the hd800 and hd800s was negligible when i compared them. the hd800s didn't sound as bright tho.

 

[Naim.F.C]

i found the difference in bass presence between the hd800 and hd800s was negligible when i compared them. the hd800s didn't sound as bright tho.

Exactly my experience too. My HD800S doesnt really have any major or especially notable bass boost over my HD800, but it is ever so slightly more tamed, notably in the treble regions. Its still treble tilted though, and my T1.1 is still slightly smoother and sweeter sounding than even my HD800S.

Here are some brief impressions from really early in to the thread.

So I have the HD800, HD800S, T1.1 and Z1R in-front of me, and I've been methodically A/B'ing them all, roughly all volume matched too. Interesting results to say the least. I'd argue they all actually sound relatively similar and are all fantastic headphones, but that the Z1R does sound the most different out of the lot. If I could describe the Z1R after this bout of A/B'ing, I'd say it essentially sounds like a HD800S, only with a touch more bass quantity, but without actually losing much if any transparency, imaging, soundstage or detail. All that is really sacrificed or lost is a hint or air. So yea, it sort of sounds like a thicker, warmer, more atmospheric HD800S basically.

Whilst all impress in different ways and at different things, the star of the show is still the Beyerdynamic T1.1. So far with all the tracks I've listened to, for me it's either come out level with, or ahead of the HD800S and HD800. It is not more outright sparkly or vivid than the Sennheisers, but I think it generally strikes a better tonal balance, with a touch more realism and sweetness to the sound. Vocals are less present or forward, and thus for me often share more synergy with the other instruments. The treble is also less cold or sharp, which gives them a subtlety that I find very pleasing. A real shame Beyerdynamic discontinued these over the T1.2's, which imo are inferior.

So far in my tests these headphones are basically trading blows with each other, but I would say the Z1R and T1.1 are probably averaging slightly higher than the other two. But that could change, I still haven't A/B'd that many different tracks. Overall I still think the T1.1 is probably the most balanced of these headphones, with the Z1R being coloured just a touch towards fun and engagement over absolute accuracy. Need to test the HD800S more though.

 

[Naim.F.C]

Other random comparisons I posted from throughout the thread, comparing the MDR-Z1R, Beyerdynamic T1.1, Sennheiser HD800 and HD800S, because why not lol.

Crazy how this thread blew up.

Cheeky snap of the cans in my current A/B listen off. The floral bed spread is my wife's doing lol.

So 10+ test tracks and hours of A/B'ing later (it takes much longer when you're re-listening to the same tracks over and over with multiple different headphones) and looking over all my notes and scores, I can definitely now say that the MDR-Z1R is a truly special pair of headphones. It's only when you really analyse things in detail, and meticulously compare with other top headphones that you have a greater realisation or confirmation of where the Z1R's strengths and capabilities actually lie, especially comparative to the rest.

Out of all the test tracks I've listened to thus far in order to compare these 4 headphones, the Z1R has essentially scored in the top two in almost every single one of them. There's basically a common pattern occurring in terms of how it will sound comparative to the other headphones. Another thing that is becoming clear is that the Z1R is immensely consistent in terms of performance, far more so than the other three cans, which can be a bit more fussy genre to genre, or track to track. Essentially you can listen to a greater diversity of genre's with the Z1R without worrying as much about it pairing poorly.

The only test track in which I felt it fared relatively poorly thus far, compared to the rest (I still gave it a 7.5 lol) is with Burn The Witch - Radiohead, where the extra thickness or warmth in the sound signature of these headphones, actually detracted from the overall quality of sonic reproduction. I think perhaps the constant foundation of mid bass in the track caused congestion elsewhere. So where usually the bass presence of these headphones does not usually particularly negatively impact overall instrumental separation, imaging or micro detailing when compared to the other headphones (HD800S, HD800 and T1), instead simply adds to the atmosphere and lushness, here it definitely caused a hint of confusion in certain parts of the track.

Aside from that though, the Z1R has fared phenomenally well in my testing, perhaps more consistently than either of the other headphones. In any case, I'll keep testing and comparing.

I'll add one caveat, if you're someone who dislikes warmer, lusher or slightly bass emphasised sound signatures, and instead prefers outright analytical transparency and air, these headphones are probably not for you.

Was going to post this in some mega comparison thread, but I'm not sure I can be bothered anymore lol. Anyway, here are some random ramblings (notes) from when I compared these headphones with a few tracks the other day. Please note all headphones were volume matched as best I could manage. I listened to each track multiple times on each headphone, back and forth, though mosty sticking to the order in which they appear below with each track.

Apologies for any bad use of language or grammar, I was literally typing as I was listening lol.



Beyerdynamic T1.1 vs Sennheiser HD800 vs Sennheiser HD800S vs Sony MDR-Z1R

----

The Weeknd - Rolling Stone

HD800 - Detailed and intricate, not hugely wide. But a tiny tiny bit sharp emphasised. Don't really feel any bass, or the faint drum oomph. Vocals a touch forward, but realistic. More studio mic than there with you. 7/10

HD800S - Still detailed, but more tonally balanced than above. Less treble emphasised. Roughly the same soundstage. Vocals a bit sweeter and more realistic, more like they're there with you, but still forward or prominent. Drums a touch more emphasised. 8.5/10

T1.1 - Detailed but more so subtly so. Maybe wider sounding than above. As above, balanced and realistic sounding, more so than HD800S due to slightly less emphasised vocals. Vocals still have a similar realism to them, maybe a hair less smooth (more sss). Drums even more emphasised than above. 9/10

Z1R - No loss of detail, maybe less sparkly than HD800, but like T1.1, has that bit more realism to it. About the same width as HD800S, but strings and drums both have more presence. A touch less air, but not dark per se, just a tiny bit warmer. Vocals similar to HD800S in emphasis, but a slight bit more weight or body. Still sound very realistic, as if the artist is there with you. 9/10

------

Radiohead - Burn the Witch

Z1R - Warm, good drum emphasis and dynamics, but a touch less air. Fairly wide sounding. Vocals realistic, but a touch too thick. Gets a tiny bit congested when it all kicks off, but very atmospheric sounding. 7.5/10

HD800S - Wider, airier than above. Symbols more emphasised. Loses some of the atmosphere and drama. Vocals still have a touch of thickness to them but better than above. Less dynamic overall than Z1R, but the sense of space does help with a different sense of occasion. Doesn't congest up when it kicks off. 8.5/10

T1.1 - A more realistic sense of intricacy than above. Symbols less emphasised or sharp. Vocals less forward, making a better overall tonal balance again. Sounds wider than HD800. Vocals still a touch thick, but blend in better to the rest of the instruments than either of the above. 9.5/10

HD800 - Similar to the HD800, but a little bit more treble emphasised. Just a touch sharper sounding, which gives separation a hair more clarity, and actually helps to keep vocals better balanced with the rest instead of being more emphasised. Perhaps a better sense of air and width. 9/10

------

Argatu' - Vinne Minerelle

T1.1 - Fairly warm, solid fairly impactful bass with some decay. Good but not amazing soundstage. Sparkle there but a tiny bit subdued and to the sides. Natural sounding, if a tiny bit congested. Good tonal balance. Vocals blend in to the rest, good realism. 8.5/10

HD800S - More sparkle and a teensy bit more transparency. Sharper sounding treble than above. Slightly larger soundstage too, plus a hair more air. Again, great tonal balance maintaining realism, though not quite as warm. Vocals blend in nicely and are not too forward. Only the bass is not quite as impactful. 8.5/10

HD800 - Sparkle is similar to T1.1's, still just a touch subdued at the sides, though symbols sharper and louder. Nice and wide. Good overall tonal balance, if a touch to the dry side. Bass not quite as present. Nice and airy. Maintains a sense of realism. Just a very small hint of sss 8/10

Z1R - Great realism of vocals and instrumental sparkle, just a hint subdued like T1.1. Notably more bass quantity and presence than others, but maintaining control and realistic decay. Fairly wide sounding. Symbols much less sharp or present. Good overall tonal balance, nothing too much or too little. Nice atmosphere and sense of drama. 9.5/10

------

Daft Punk - Recogniser

Z1R - Immense sense of occasion and atmosphere. Bold, slightly warm sound, with a bass like spread under everything that gives individual sounds a bit of additional poise, but just a hint of darkness. When the bass drops, you feel it. Almost threatening. Nice wide sounding stage, in both width and height. 9.5/10

HD800S - Still grand and dramatic, but with a greater sense of air and separation than above. Individual instruments just a hint more articulate. Really natural and honest sounding. Great sense of transparency, space and soundstage. 10/10

HD800 - As above, but just a hint leaner sounding. Not quite as natural, though still maintains excellent soundstage and separation. Micro details oddly not quite as defined or present as above. 9/10

T1.1 - Great sense of texture and micro detail. Mid bass really shines, tight, fast and responsive. Grand, and dynamic sounding. Slightly smoother than HD800S, with less sparkle and instead more liquid highs. Hint of congestion in places, but otherwise still fairly airy and wide. 9/10

------

Stateless - Matilda

HD800S - Really detailed, if just a tad too lean. Vocals realistic, just a sliver thin. Highs have a sense of sharpness and vividness to them, perhaps a tad over energised, though not sibilant. Relatively wide sounding, with strong instrumental separation. Strings, vocals etc, lack a tiny bit of additional weight or body. 7.5/10

HD800 - As above, overall too lean sounding with a tad too much sparkle or zing. Lacking a bit in bass quantity and punch, with bass drums that don't stand out enough. Leaning towards a cool or treble emphasised tonal balance that whilst detailed and with good separation, just comes off a hint overly busy. 7/10

T1.1 - A touch sweeter and more natural sounding than above, but maintaining a similar level of articulation and space. Tonally all instruments and vocals seem that little bit more honest, with treble that is not quite as lean or emphasised, but still somewhat focused on technicality over absolute liquidity. A more balanced overall presentation, with no particular frequency that is overbearing or overzealous. 9/10

Z1R - Warmer, more dynamic and more atmospheric than above. There's still a great balance and honesty to the overall signature with all instruments and vocals, but here they all have a hint of extra weight and realism. Soundstage is a little bit more intimate and spherical instead of wide, but instrumental separation and imaging is not compromised. Very natural sounding. 9.5/10

------

Bonobo - We Could Forever

T1.1 - Mids a hint recessed, plus there's a slight slant towards leanness, but overall still a great tonal balance, with nothing dominating or coming undone. Bass has decent quantity to it, but not a lot of impact. Good sense of instrumental separation with good imaging. Lots of air between sounds, and a fairly wide and open soundstage. 8/10

HD800 - Very detailed and transparent sounding. Excellent separation and individuality to instruments. Slight over sharpness and energy to highs. Mids a bit more present here, which for this track helps add dynamism. There's still a slant towards a slightly lean overall signature, which can in the build up make things seem a tad busy. Bass quantity is lacking, with little impact or presence. 7.5/10

HD800S - As above in most respects, but this time a hint warmer and less strident in the highs. Mids seem a bit more present as a result. There also seems to be just a touch more bass presence as well, which further smoothens things out. Overall tonal balance seems more accurate than above. Soundstage remains very wide and airy, and imaging notably precise. 8.5/10

Z1R - A smoother, more liquid presentation. Similar to the above, but with an even more balanced tonal representation, if a hair on the darker side. There's improved bass quantity, especially sub bass texture, which gives the overall presentation a bit more foundation, moodiness and background for added dynamics. Highs are more fluid, lacking in just a hint of energy, but instruments overall seem more true to life. 9.5/10

------

Nirvana - Come As You Are

Z1R - Beautiful, atmospheric and sumptuous with great dynamics and punchy bass presence. Vocals just a hair recessed, but very realistic sounding. Presents everything with a sense of honesty, including in the sense of staging and space that is not overly large, but believable in both width and depth, though not so much in height. 9.5/10

T1.1 - As above, but just a tiny bit leaner and airier, with just a splash of extra sparkle. Still very natural and honest sounding, with nothing that sticks out as too harsh or out of place. Bass is a bit tighter and more controlled. Vocals still a hint recessed. 9.5/10

HD800S - Similar to above, but this time vocals are a touch more prominent and sweet, but unfortunately with the rare instance of sibilance. Luckily it maintains a similar sense of honesty and naturalness throughout. If it weren't for the odd bit of annoying sibilance, I'd have given it a higher score. 8.5/10

HD800 - Very similar to the above. Slightly less bass quantity and impact, and a hint leaner overall. Sibilance less prominent than above, but highs and vocals still towing the line on being almost too hot or zingy. Vocals a touch thinner sounding. 8.5/10

------

David Bowie - Moonage Daydream

T1.1 - Really liquid, layered and dynamic sounding. Spacious, wide soundstage, with great instrumental separation and realism. Vocals also realistic, though a touch recessed, which actually allows the rest of the instruments and sounds to shine or be noticed. Great balance overall, and with good bass presence and detail too. 9.5/10

HD800 - As above, but highs are a bit more zingy and pronounced, especially at the sides. Vocals also remain ever so slightly recessed, perhaps part of the recording. Overall sound is just a hair leaner as is becoming typical of these headphones. 8.5/10

HD800S - An ever so slightly warmer version of the above. Vocals remain ever so slightly recessed (confirming it is intrinsic to the recording), but perhaps to a lesser extent than the T1.1's, and compared to the HD800 they also have a bit more body to them, adding to the sense of honesty. Soundstage also remains very wide, and details crisp and transparent. Still a tiny bit too much energy or spark in some of the highs. 9/10

Z1R - Similar to the T1.1's things sound layered and dynamic, but with even more body, punch and lushness. Vocals are a hint more forward, similar to the HD800S, but still very slightly recessed compared to the rest of the recording. Vocals however are thicker and have a more realistic weight to them. Essentially overall this is again a slightly warmer version of what is being offered by the HD800S or T1.1, but once again, surprisingly not sacrificing on separation or soundstage, only outright sparkle. What you lose in air and cleanliness, you gain in atmosphere, smoothness and addictive bass. 9.5/10

So I'm playing ABZU. Breathtaking game and a really sumptuous testing ground for headphones.

Compared all my cans again multiple times just for kicks.

---

HD800 - A bit too treble emphasised for my liking. Minute sounds are exaggerated and zingy, and detract somewhat from the more ambient or subtle sounds. It's great that you can hear every little detail since its all really quite present, but it sort of sounds like it's also been somewhat artificially extracted to the forefront, in order to garner more attention, and as a result the tonal balance isn't quite right. It doesn't sound honest or realistic enough.

---

HD800S - Better than above. Things just toned down a touch, but certain sounds to me still sound over cooked. Splashes and dives have a snap sharpness to them that feels more akin to a whipping sensation than that of a weighty diver or dolphin smashing in to or through water or waves at high speed. There's a great sense of space and air to everything, which adds clarity, but also makes things sound a touch sterile sounding, almost as though you're swimming through the air rather than under water. Tonal balance is closer, but for this game at least, still lacking a touch of weight or emotion.

---

T1.1 - Tonal balance is more honest and realistic sounding than above. Ambient sounds share attention or space with everything else a little more sensibly, with nothing standing out as over emphasised. Splashes etc sound more realistic too, if just a hint on the quiet or undramatic side (ever so slightly more recessed mids?). Overall this still offers an airy, spacious sound, but with just a touch more warmth and smoothness.

---

Z1R - This is some sort of half way house between the T1.1 and HD800S in terms of micro details and separation or pronunciation of individual sounds. Oddly, certain effects like certain fishes dashing around, or you speed breaching through the water, or diving in to it from a height, are a hair louder than they are with the T1.1's (mids or upper mids?), but at the same time they're not as sharp sounding as with the Sennheisers, and instead sound the most realistic of the lot. There's intricacy to these sounds, but some more body and weight at the same time too. Like it genuinely feels like a human is smashing through the water. You feel it just a little more.

Things still sound spacious too, but warmer than even the T1.1's. It now feels more like you actually are under water. There's a moodiness and atmosphere to how its all presented, but the tonal balance, similar to the T1.1's, is excellent, perhaps the best out of the lot. It still doesn't sound congested, since the micro details are all there, just sitting on top of a moodier foundation.

Lastly, when the great white shark jump scares the hell out of you, usually by eating one of your guide bots, the sudden snap, slam, crunch or explosion that immediately follows, sounds more threatening and scary with the the Z1R's compared to the others. The bass quantity seems to add a sense of drama to these moments, that isn't quite as threatening with the other headphones.

The only downside is on a couple of levels, the background bass on some loud persistent percussion type sounds can be a bit too heavy.

---

Anyway, in order of preference of sound with ABZU (PS4 Pro), I'd rank them Z1R > T1.1 > HD800S > HD800.

If however I fancied a slightly airier presentation instead of a more musical or atmospheric one, whilst maintaining a realistic overall total balance, I might switch to the T1.1 as top pick.

This was not my order of testing, plus I tested each headphone multiple times, reloading certain levels, roughly all volume matched.

 

[up late]

you just might have put this thread back on track

 

[beowulf]

So I'm playing ABZU. Breathtaking game and a really sumptuous testing ground for headphones.
.

Very interesting comparison, we don't often see games used as examples here, but sometimes they're actually excellent to compare headphones.

I actually got ABZU ages ago but never started it, your post made me want to try it out.

I played a lot of Witcher 3 this weekend and it remains one of my favorite games to test sound. The sound engineering work on that game is top notch, Foley recording, location, etc. Same for the music.

It's a game where the HD800/800S really shines due to the soundstage and treble sharpness. I like to play it with the iFI Black Label due to having the X-Bass for the HD800 and the 3D for the Z1R (and other closed cans). Sometimes I use both XBass/3D even with the HD800 and it makes the bubble of space feel even more holographic. You can pinpoint the exact location of those wolves stepping on dry branches somewhere in the forest.

Z1R is quite enjoyable for those boomier moments. Like the sound of thunder during a rainy windy storm.

Anyway, time to run ABZU

 

[pietcux]

Really random, but putting price aside, has anyone compared the Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro's and DT1770 Pro's with the HD800, HD800S, T1, MDR-Z1R, LCD-3, TH900 etc, sonically speaking? For whatever reason, these headphones really call out to me, but if I purchase another pair of headphones for comparison reasons, my wife will most probably set my entire headphone collection on fire lol.

I liked the DT1990 quite a bit more than the DT1770. So the DT1770 had to go not long after the DT1990 arrived. To me the DT1990 sounds very balanced but does nothing wrong, so no treble peak a treble plateau instead. As an example Brian Bromberg's Wood II album sounds extremely well. The T1.1 was the can that I demoed with this Album. The T1.1 had a little more sparkle on the cymbals, but less bass. The absence of bass was the criterium not to buy the T1.1. The DT1990 have all Beyerdynamic strengths minus zingy treble. The DT1770 is especially in comparison to the DT1990 only second or even third choice. I prefer the Z7 over it, it has more soul in it's music reproduction, just like the Z1r.......
But the DT1990 pales in comparison to both Sony's to me at least. I prefer the HD650 over the DT1990 so far when I need an open can. The DT1990 will go on sale soon.

 

[Naim.F.C]

Very interesting comparison, we don't often see games used as example here. I actually got ABZU ages ago but never started it, your post made me want to try it out.

I played a lot of Witcher 3 this weekend and it remains one of my favorite games to test sound. The sound engineering work on that game is top notch, so is music.
It's a game where the HD800 really shines due to the soundstage and treble sharpness. I like to play it with the iFI Black Label due to having the X-Bass for the HD800 and the 3D for the Z1R (and other closed cans). Sometimes I use both XBass/3D even with the HD800 and it makes the bubble of space feel even more holographic. You can pinpoint the exact location of those wolves stepping on dry branches somewhere in the forest.

Z1R is quite enjoyable for those boomier moments. Like the sound of thunder during a storm.

Anyway, time to run ABZU

Yea Witcher 3 is great, both gameplay and sound wise. Have you tried Horizon Zero Dawn yet? Also incredible in both those respects. As is The Last of Us Remastered with its lossless audio, and very high-quality mixing.

I actually test my headphones with games a fair amount as so many games these days have such high-end recording and production, often with relatable sound effects etc that make for very good testing.

On this subject, I also have a racing simulation rig in my games room for stuff like Assetto Corsa, iRacing, Raceroom, Driveclub etc, and it's always interesting comparing vehicle audio reproduction with different headphones, to such vehicles I have access to or have heard in real life. Out of the headphones I presently own, the MDR-Z1R is comfortably the best, or most accurate at reproducing vehicle sounds in such simulators/games. V8's, V12's, turbo dump valves, downshifts, pops, bangs, backfire and so on, all that stuff just sounds more honest and rich on the Z1R's, and splayed out, or ever so slightly lacking in drama, weight or body on the German cans, likewise just a smidgen shy of the same sharpness, clarity and attack with the LCD3's/LCD2's.

That said, for those that prefer specifically airier, wider or more sharp-edged gaming audio, certainly stick with cans like the T1 or HD800S/HD800.

 

[PCheung]

I would recommend the OST of NieR:Automata, a recent release with some nice recording

http://ototoy.jp/_/default/p/72791

 

[MacedonianHero]

i found the difference in bass presence between the hd800 and hd800s was negligible when i compared them. the hd800s didn't sound as bright tho.

A-B them directly, there is an approx. 3dB bass boost on the HD800S. Corresponding FR sweeps confirmed this, not a big difference, but a welcomed addition to my ears.

 

[up late]

A-B them directly, there is an approx. 3dB bass boost on the HD800S. Corresponding FR sweeps confirmed this, not a big difference, but a welcomed addition to my ears.

then we have a difference of opinion. naim f.c's impression echoes my own fwiw. tyll's measurements (heaven forbid! ) of three hd800s' indicate that they all have less bass extension than the hd800 that he measured - again, fwiw.

 

[HiFiGuy528]

To me, measurements on an audio product such as a headphone is like dyno results for a car. The dyno test will not tell you how the car behaves on the road and how you feel driving it. Measurements are mostly meaningless and should be labeled "for entertainment purpose only".

 

[up late]

and where were you when this was being thrashed out over the last fifty pages?

 

[ubs28]

well i guess we have a difference of opinion. naim f.c.'s impression echoes my own fwiw. tyll's measurements (heaven forbid!) of three hd800s' indicate that they all have less bass extension than the hd800 that he measured - again, fwiw.

You can't rely on the frequency response with the HD 800 vs HD 800 S.

The reason is THD which mimick more sub bass extension.

An other example of a headphone doing this trick is the Shure SRH 1840. Based on the frequency response you would think it has no sub bass at all. However due to the THD filling in the void, it sounds like it has descent sub bass.

However not saying THD can substitute real sub bass ofcourse.

 

[up late]

i can understand how more thd might make the bass seem fuller with definition suffering as a consequence, but the mimicking of sub-bass claim seems like a stretch based on my comparison and dare i say it, the measurements.

 

[beowulf]

the hd800 was the biggest news in headphones in years when it was introduced. it was "a game changer" at the time and it generated huge interest at head-fi.
i'm not denying that the hd800 has a reputation for being a highly strung thoroughbred of a headphone, but there hadn't been a dynamic headphone before it that was so revealing. it set new standards in resolution, imaging and "soundstage" that head-fi'ers hadn't heard before, and then there was that 6khz peak.
there wasn't a high-end headphone market to speak of at the time that the hd800 was introduced. highly resolving totl headphones are now commonplace however, and there are many more options to pair with them than there were when the hd800 was released. you'll find owners and potential owners of the more recent totl headphones still asking the same kinds of questions over in summit-fi that have been asked about the hd800. anyway, this is the z1r thread so we probably should turn our attention back to it.

Well said. The poor 800 get a lot of flak for the 6 kHz peak, but I find interesting how little its result was mentioned before some measurements started appearing (From Tyll, etc). After that, it suddenly became super sibilant and fatiguing, while before it was just having extreme clarity and resolution.

I like it a lot and it's a great complement to the Z1R. They're very different and very enjoyable in different ways, with different music. IMO, the 800 S is also totally unnecessary, as I prefer the original unmodded 800. You can get good improvements in bass and treble smoothness just playing with sources and even EQ if you want.

Going back to the Z1R, something I liked when I got it was slowly discovering how the Z1R was revealing no less detail than the grainy 800. At first listen the Z1R sounded almost veiled and buttery when used right after the HD800, but it turns out everything was there. Every little detail. Still well separated and well positioned (a bit more centered, tho) and audible even at low volumes.

I'd really like to have a hybrid of these two, with both signatures combined. Seems impossible, but who knows where the technology is heading to.