[Whitigir]

Well said. The poor 800 get a lot of flak for the 6 kHz peak, but I find interesting how little its result was mentioned before some measurements started appearing (From Tyll, etc). After that, it suddenly became super sibilant and fatiguing, while before it was just having extreme clarity and resolution.

I like it a lot and it's a great complement to the Z1R. They're very different and very enjoyable in different ways, with different music. IMO, the 800 S is also totally unnecessary, as I prefer the original unmodded 800. You can get good improvements in bass and treble smoothness just playing with sources and even EQ if you want.

Going back to the Z1R, something I liked when I got it was slowly discovering how the Z1R was revealing no less detail than the grainy 800. At first listen the Z1R sounded almost veiled and buttery when used right after the HD800, but it turns out everything was there. Every little detail. Still well separated and well positioned (a bit more centered, tho) and audible even at low volumes.

I'd really like to have a hybrid of these two, with both signatures combined. Seems impossible, but who knows where the technology is heading to.

Keep on dreaming and wishing, who knows what Santa may bring oh, be a good kid in the mean time as well. Or....look into Utopia ? LOL

 

[Naim.F.C]

I would agree that measurements do not tell the entire story, but to clarify, my opinions about the HD800 vs HD800S on the bass front were not based on "measurements". I own both headphones and have spent many hours A/B'ing them. Any bass difference between the two based on my own listening is very small in the grand scheme of things. Nothing I'd call especially prominent, but that's not to say I haven't felt there's no difference in the bass at all.

The biggest difference I'm able to tell between the two models is that the HD800S is a touch less strident in the highs, which likely allows the rest of the frequency range to shine a touch more. Eg the highs or treble are not detracting as much from the mids, lows etc, which is what perhaps gives the perception of a slightly warmer overall signature.

That being said, I still wouldn't call the HD800S a "warm" headphone overall. It is still very much leaning on the colder or more articulate side, and still sounds very similar to the HD800. I actually still find my T1.1's smoother overall compared to the HD800S, which I know is counter to many people's impressions which pit the T1.1 as harsh or more sibilant. That is not my experience with the T1.1's. I'd imagine that just like with anything, certain copies of the T1.1 were slightly less harsh in the treble, due to manufacturing and tuning variation or tolerance, which is why mine, like Thatonenoob's and others all over the internet, have described their T1.1's as smoother or more liquid sounding.

I suspect there might be a similar thing going on with the MDR-Z1R's, where a certain batch has this 10k spike or more treble emphasis, whilst others don't. But who really knows, I'm merely speculating.

Didn't the MDR-R10 also release with two variable models based on serial or batch? One bass light and one bass heavy? Maybe it's a similar thing with the MDR-Z1R but with the treble lol.

 

[rnros]

The human variable has to be accounted for also, different ear canals, different Fr sensitivities, perhaps also different emotional responses to a given Fr range. This is where using the same test rig on the suspect units is helpful, or using the same human subject. Although with the human, the issue of subjectivity remains. I would always expect a degree of variance with any headphone, the question goes to the variances that are actually audible.

I think a good example of an easily and objectively verifiable variance is the recent Elear, where some units have an issue of excessive cone/diaphragm excursion. That's not a subjective 'maybe', the driver is either 'jumping the gap' or it's not. The only question there is can we rely on individual SPL levels reported. Those of us who experienced that, know it's real, those who haven't, typically try to attribute the anecdotal evidence to some other misunderstood, or misreported phenomenon.

 

[Naim.F.C]

The human variable has to be accounted for also, different ear canals, different Fr sensitivivities, perhaps also different emotional responses to a given Fr range. This is where using the same test rig on the suspect units is helpful, or using the same human subject. Although with the human, the issue of subjectivity remains. I would always expect a degree of variance with any headphone, the question goes to the variances that are actually audible.

I think a good example of an easily and objectively verifiable variance is the recent Elear, where some units have an issue of excessive cone/diaphragm excursion. That's not a subjective 'maybe', the driver is either 'jumping the gap' or it's not. The only question there is can we rely on individual SPL levels reported. Those of us who experienced that, know it's real, those who haven't, typically try to attribute the anecdotal evidence to some other misunderstood, or misreported phenomenon.

Yes absolutely. We're all biologically different at the end of the day, so it's not unreasonable to assume we have hearing differences as well as everything else.

On a side note, two aspects of the MDR-Z1R that are overlooked and are in my opinion, massive positives, are that;

A.) They are closed and leak very little sound, and as such are extremely versatile.

B.) They are very easy to drive and sound great even plugged directly into a mobile phone or laptop.

I use mine straight out of my phone with Samsung Music Player (sounds leaner than PowerAmp) with my S7 Edge, and it sounds very good so long as I stay away from the last 15% to 20% or so of the max volume limit. Only at the upper limits of volume does it start to get harsh and unrefined, unlike when using an AMP/DAC set up, where it stays smooth and refined even at much higher volumes. Thankfully because they're easy to drive, they stay plenty loud without having to reach those upper levels, at least at my listening volumes anyway.

 

[wormcycle]

I'm basing it on my OWN experience correlating to other response charts. As mentioned previously in the thread, I actually owned multiple MDR-Z1R's, and offered a comparison between them. Essentially they sounded near enough exactly the same, minus a very, very slight difference, almost imperceptible, which I felt could be more down to the shape of the earpads than the actual headphones, as the earpads varied slightly it terms of stitching uniformity and depth.

Regarding Tyll (and other reviewers and forum members), I'm just very sceptical about opinions in general at the moment, having come across so many instances where I've flat out disagreed, felt they were hypocritical, or simply well off the mark, after actually personally testing cans, amps, cables and all the rest, including blind testing at every opportunity I get.

As just one example, the massive amounts of praise that the HD800 got, the same headphone that people are these days modding left and right to sound more acceptable. Tyll was happy to declare the HD800 a massive winner and extremely well balanced, despite the headphones clearly being slanted towards articulation and coldness (which to his credit he did touch on), and despite him and others later recommending multiple mods, EQ tweaks and all the rest to get them to sound ironically better 'balanced', essentially adapting how they sound altogether! Note he hasn't offered the same advice or tweaks for cans such as the MDR-Z1R.

As a side, usually when people say certain headphones are "brutally honest" or will constantly show up "bad recordings" or are "really picky with amps", generally what that says to me is that the headphones themselves are too harsh and/or cold, and the reviewer or user is simply making excuses for that, or justifying improper sonic balancing. At least that has been my experience thus far anyway.

By the way, who's Marv?

I am really skeptical about your opinions: you started with something based on your experience and quickly progressed to HD800 mods of which you do not seem to know much, mods or headphones. Fist of all many people, like me, bought HD800 and used without any mods because they were just perfect for instrumental, classical music. I moved to HD800S after that. And the mods were all focused on removing the 6kHz peak that bothered some folks. But almost everyone agreed that overall HD800 were so good overall that modding them would make a lot of sense because, with the mod, they were not acceptable as you think, they were just better than anything else.

 

[Naim.F.C]

I am really skeptical about your opinions: you started with something based on your experience and quickly progressed to HD800 mods of which you do not seem to know much, mods or headphones. Fist of all many people, like me, bought HD800 and used without any mods because they were just perfect for instrumental, classical music. I moved to HD800S after that. And the mods were all focused on removing the 6kHz peak that bothered some folks. But almost everyone agreed that overall HD800 were so good overall that modding them would make a lot of sense because, with the mod, they were not acceptable as you think, they were just better than anything else.

HD800's.

Firstly, I'm glad you think that the HD800's are "just perfect" for your favoured genre or whatever, but surely you can appreciate that the headphones are overall treble emphasised and analytical, and not "balanced" or "neutral" as many claimed. This is further evidenced by hundreds, maybe even thousands of people modding and EQ'ing the headphones all in a similar way, to reduce the treble hotness and/or also syncing it with gear (AMPS, DAC's etc) that were tilted towards warmth or smoothness.

As a reference, I love the balance of the MDR-Z1R's, and to me they're excellent as they are, but I wouldn't be disingenuous enough to suggest they're not somewhat bass emphasised, in the same way I wouldn't be disingenuous enough to suggest the HD800's were not treble emphasised or slightly on the colder, airier side. Have your preferences, sure, but try and maintain some semblance of objectivity comparative to everything else.

Also the mods, custom EQ's etc for the HD800's have the effect of notably impacting the overall signature of the headphones by dialling back the treble regions, and notably that 6k peak. We're not talking about an insignificant difference, but a marked one which re-balances the sound of the headphones, and ironically brings them closer to the HD800S. I purchased and fitted the Superdupont mod myself, directly from Sorrodje on these forums, but then reversed them since I ended up later purchasing the HD800S, so preferred having both stock, for added diversity. There is enough of a difference between the headphones that I kept both the HD800 and HD800S, which should highlight how much of an impact the mods in question actually had.

Skepticism.

Finally, I don't really care that you're sceptical of my opinions, I'm sceptical of most opinions on these forums too. It's good to be sceptical. But those who have been reading my posts and impressions for a while now, will know that I tell it straight. I don't fall in the the trap of needing to falsely promote or commend headphones, DACs, amps etc I purchased for silly money to validate my purchasing decision, nor do I fall idle to flavour of the month, hype or trends.

I have always been up front about my opinions, even when controversial. Eg blind comparisons I've posted comparing high end amps vs the O2. High end cables vs cheap one's etc. Likewise about the HD800 and how I didn't think they were completely balanced or neutral, contrary to what many said at the time that they were "the it headphone". I was also upfront from the very beginning about how I thought the LCD2's were rolled off in the treble and lacked somewhat in air and articulation, even when many on these forums suggested otherwise when they too were "flavour of the month" (low and behold all "improved" releases after the LCD2 had more treble emphasis). Likewise with my impressions of the T1.1 vs the T1.2, the LCDXC and all sorts.

Ultimately, I'm able to be honest about my opinions because I'm not as emotionally invested and jaded towards expensive purchases, and tend to own multiple high end cans at a time. I speak candidly about the HD800, HD800S, T1.1, MDR-Z1R, LCD3 etc, because I OWN them all. I'm not someone who's put all their chips in one basket and feels the need to validate that purchase relentlessly. I'll tell it as I see it, and as I hear it, in an honest way for the benefit of all users. If you don't agree with my opinions, that's fine, but consider that you're at least hearing opinions from someone who actually owns the headphones he's speaking about!

 

[beowulf]

Yes absolutely. We're all biologically different at the end of the day, so it's not unreasonable to assume we have hearing differences as well as everything else.

On a side note, two aspects of the MDR-Z1R that are overlooked and are in my opinion, massive positives, are that;

A.) They are closed and leak very little sound, and as such are extremely versatile.

B.) They are very easy to drive and sound great even plugged directly into a mobile phone or laptop.

These are good points, but I would combine them in one. The Z1R are versatile (compared to something like the HD800/800S which we've been chatting about, but applicable to similar models) also because they isolate well and are easy to drive, among other reasons.

Some people totally overlook aspects like isolation when picking headphones (recently had a chat with a friend who did this) and are later surprised by how much the external noise annoys them or at least degrades sound quality.

That's not a unique trait of the Z1R compared to other good closed cans, of course. What might make a bigger difference is the level of comfort. Comfort is also very often ignored when choosing a model, but it is extremely important if you actually want to listen, rather than just evaluating sound.

The Z1R are pretty good at isolating while still sounding airy and open, while the comfort is simply reference-level, at any price. It's probably the only area of the Z1R that I see as fully non subjective; it's a very minimalistic, solid comfortable design. Even if Sony changes the signature and whole sound style in future models, I think the comfort part is done for good. 10/10.

 

[BunnyNamedCraig]

I would agree that measurements do not tell the entire story, but to clarify, my opinions about the HD800 vs HD800S on the bass front were not based on "measurements". I own both headphones and have spent many hours A/B'ing them. Any bass difference between the two based on my own listening is very small in the grand scheme of things. Nothing I'd call especially prominent, but that's not to say I haven't felt there's no difference in the bass at all.

The biggest difference I'm able to tell between the two models is that the HD800S is a touch less strident in the highs, which likely allows the rest of the frequency range to shine a touch more. Eg the highs or treble are not detracting as much from the mids, lows etc, which perhaps gives the perception of a slightly warmer overall signature.

That being said, I still wouldn't call the HD800S a "warm" headphone overall. It is still very much leaning on the colder or more articulate side, and still sounds very similar to the HD800. I actually still find my T1.1's smoother overall compared to the HD800S, which I know is counter to many people's impressions which pit the T1.1 as harsh or more sibilant. That is not my experience with the T1.1's. I'd imagine that just like with anything, certain copies of the T1.1 were slightly less harsh in the treble, due to manufacturing and tuning variation or tolerance, which is why mine, like Thatonenoob's and others all over the internet, have described their T1.1's as smoother or more liquid sounding.

I suspect there might be a similar thing going on with the MDR-Z1R's, where a certain batch has this 10k spike or more treble emphasis, whilst others don't. But who really knows, I'm merely speculating.

Didn't the MDR-R10 also release with two variable models based on serial or batch? One bass light and one bass heavy? Maybe it's a similar thing with the MDR-Z1R but with the treble lol.

I'm sorry, T1.1 is referring to the first T1, and is called that so it's not to be misunderstood? (Even though I am asking to not misunderstand ha).

I think the T1v2 is closer to the HD800s. I think the HD800s takes the edge compeltly off the HD800. I don't know if we are talking the same thing or not ha

 

[buzzlulu]

These are good points, but I would combine them in one. The Z1R are versatile (compared to something like the HD800/800S which we've been chatting about, but applicable to similar models) also because they isolate well and are easy to drive, among other reasons.

Some people totally overlook aspects like isolation when picking headphones (recently had a chat with a friend who did this) and are later surprised by how much the external noise annoys them or at least degrades sound quality.

That's not a unique trait of the Z1R compared to other good closed cans, of course. What might make a bigger difference is the level of comfort. Comfort is also very often ignored when choosing a model, but it is extremely important if you actually want to listen, rather than just evaluating sound.

The Z1R are pretty good at isolating while still sounding airy and open, while the comfort is simply reference-level, at any price. It's probably the only area of the Z1R that I see as fully non subjective; it's a very minimalistic, solid comfortable design. Even if Sony changes the signature and whole sound style in future models, I think the comfort part is done for good. 10/10.

+1 - what he said.

This is why I could not stay away and am coming back to the Z1R's again (after having returned them once before). This time they will stay.

I originally felt they would not get much use as long as the Utopias remain in house. Instead I need a pair which isolates well AND, as stated by Beowulf, comfort is of the charts.

My pair arrives this week (hey Jason?) along with the Sony branded Kimber cable (Axios on my Utopias however I'm going to try the "cheaper" version for the Sony's)

 

[TSAVJason]

+1 - what he said.

This is why I could not stay away and am coming back to the Z1R's again (after having returned them once before). This time they will stay.

I originally felt they would not get much use as long as the Utopias remain in house. Instead I need a pair which isolates well AND, as stated by Beowulf, comfort is of the charts.

My pair arrives this week (hey Jason?) along with the Sony branded Kimber cable (Axios on my Utopias however I'm going to try the "cheaper" version for the Sony's)

I believe you're referring to the Sony/Kimber.

What? Wait so check it out. Tomorrow night at precisely 10pm (somewhere), go outside, look true eastward. You'll see a lantern(s), 1 if by land or 2 if by sea! Lol

....I don't know, you'll need to check that with Wayne.

 

[buzzlulu]

Hey- maybe you will send Wayne (and my Sony's) on the red eye tomorrow night to hand deliver.
After all it is the 4th of July- Wayne is British isn't he?
The British are coming- and they are bringing a pair of Sony's with them

 

[Sonic Defender]

+1 - what he said.

This is why I could not stay away and am coming back to the Z1R's again (after having returned them once before). This time they will stay.

I originally felt they would not get much use as long as the Utopias remain in house. Instead I need a pair which isolates well AND, as stated by Beowulf, comfort is of the charts.

My pair arrives this week (hey Jason?) along with the Sony branded Kimber cable (Axios on my Utopias however I'm going to try the "cheaper" version for the Sony's)

Good for you, and beyond the comfort and isolation, the signature really is quite exceptional and musical. All of this talk about measurements and value have really served to distract from the fantastic sound signature the Z1R sports. Rather than compare it, I say enjoy it for what it brings to the show. I can tell you I certainly miss the scale of the sound and the tonality. Man, even at high volumes it remained in control and defined. With the Utopia, you are pretty darn set.

 

[TSAVJason]

Hey- maybe you will send Wayne (and my Sony's) on the red eye tomorrow night to hand deliver.
After all it is the 4th of July- Wayne is British isn't he?
The British are coming- and they are bringing a pair of Sony's with them

Ah yeah right! On our way! Keep your eyes protected. Your hands and fingers away from the fireworks and have a great 4th!

 

[up late]

the most comfortable headphone experience i've had was with the sr-007. there was just something about its sound signature and fit that made it a completely relaxing listening experience for me. the z1r comes very close to it in that regard, which is probably why i'm attracted to it.

i found that it provided good isolation from the noise around me. while it has treble sparkle, i wouldn't describe it as airy. it sounded like a closed can to me in that respect. i wouldn't say that its sound signature is balanced compared to the hd800/hd800s either tbh. i just like the z1r for what it is.

 

[Whitigir]

Yepe, as long as you like something for what it is, then you know you have made the correct decision, just like marriage