The Official 64 Audio Thread | apex & tia Technologies
Sep 28, 2021 at 10:28 AM Post #18,721 of 23,720
Well that's what I mean, tuning of the u18t is bright, certainly not bassy and I think quite balanced, nothing is emphasized and some have refered to it as boring, i would not call it boring but certainly not mainstream. u12t is more bassy, more dynamic and adds more colour, less neutral apparently ( haven't heard it just what i picked up here and there), in my book that's more mainstream. While fourte apparently is anything but mainstream, with the divisive treble and disappearing mids :), so how's that audiophile :))))
Just funny how we use these terms......... I am inclined to call dr Beats reference now :)
Joking guys, its really of no importance but shows that reading used terminology can have wildly different implied meaning........

There is no set definition of these categories, it varies from one person to another. Like yourself, I find U18t to be more analytical and micro-detailed in comparison to warmer smoother U18s, thus I consider U18t to be reference while U18s to be more mainstream for the less picky crowd who wants more bass and less treble.
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 10:35 AM Post #18,722 of 23,720
I think it was perpetuated by a common interpretation of reference back then, which was more detail = more reference. A treble boost (or a bass cut) is the easiest way to amplify perception of detail, and it also coincided with the marketing philosophy (or propaganda) of reference = more detail = better that most companies tried (and are still trying, to a degree) to push to consumers. That created a wave of bright-leaning headphones/IEMs that were labelled reference or studio quality, and that label or association has stuck ever since.

For me, the term reference has always been more closely tied to tonality than detail. After all, the term reference comes from being viable as a mixing or mastering reference, and you’re mostly shaping a track’s tonality, balance or colour when you’re mixing and mastering, right? So, a reference product, to me, will always be one that adds as little colour as possible to the music. If I hear the same treble peak or low-mid cut between track A and track B, even though those tracks are entirely different genres, then that in-ear isn’t wholly reference to me. Parts of an IEM or headphone can also be reference or not reference, but that’s a can of worms for another time. :p

Whereas, warm = fun is an idea that at least has some objective truth in it. The bottom-end in 90% of music is conducive to rhythm and groove (instruments like the bass drum or the bass guitar), so we tend to associate funkiness or musicality to an elevated bottom-end.


I believe the common consensus is that the opposite is true, actually. The U18t is generally-considered the more dynamic one, while the U12t is the flatter, more relaxed, more neutral one. The U12t is only considered more bass-y than the U18t because the latter has more upper-mid forwardness and more treble. That’s what I personally thought when I heard them, at least.

There is no set definition of these categories, it varies from one person to another. Like yourself, I find U18t to be more analytical and micro-detailed in comparison to warmer smoother U18s, thus I consider U18t to be reference while U18s to be more mainstream for the less picky crowd who wants more bass and less treble.

Yeah that's how think about these categorisations as well. A bit suprised about the above remark of the u18t being more dynamic than u12t, that for me is a very important aspect and i always thought (by reading many reviews of u12t) u12t was being regarded as more dynamic, That's something that the Utopia has for me and makes me think of getting the EE Evo
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 10:52 AM Post #18,723 of 23,720
Yeah that's how think about these categorisations as well. A bit suprised about the above remark of the u18t being more dynamic than u12t, that for me is a very important aspect and i always thought (by reading many reviews of u12t) u12t was being regarded as more dynamic, That's something that the Utopia has for me and makes me think of getting the EE Evo

Category is just a label. When you read full reviews and impressions from corresponding reviewers and headfiers, you can align with what they actually mean. Like I said, nothing is set in stone, besides the fact that we don't even hear the same :)
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 11:00 AM Post #18,725 of 23,720
Category is just a label. When you read full reviews and impressions from corresponding reviewers and headfiers, you can align with what they actually mean. Like I said, nothing is set in stone, besides the fact that we don't even hear the same :)
I know, I know,
Always your own ears that make the final call.....I always wanted the LCD-4 for the bass, until I heard them back to back with the Utopia, and to my ears there is no better bass (in the sense of getting the feel of being at the cinema with a good bass system so that you can hear the foreboding rumble) than the Utopia with Arche, reading reviews the Utopia would lack bass............still haven't heard better, probably my ears :)
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 12:13 PM Post #18,726 of 23,720
I wanted to share some more thoughts on the Duo because I brought one back with me from CanJam. As far as I can tell, 64A basically has three flavors of sound: their "reference" audiophile tuning (which consists of the U12t, U6t, U18s, and to some extent the Nio), their audiophile tuning (the Tia Trio and Tia Fourte), and their mainstream tuning (the U18t). The Duo straddles the line of the previously somewhat lone Nio while adding on some extra flair up top, presenting a comparatively new flavor, if not one that will be readily familiar to fans of the brand. But before I get ahead of myself, I should share some thoughts on the Duo's physical design.

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In a nutshell, I LOVE the Duo's design. The grill doesn't look cheap at all to me and it's super pleasing aesthetically. Something different about the shell of the Duo is that it has been anodized what appears to be a slight shade of midnight blue (or maybe I'm just colorblind). Either way, the Duo looks fantastic. And it's just as ergonomic too. While I didn't get in a size comparison in the photos above, it's the shortest of 64 Audio's IEMs in terms of shell depth. I spent about 5+ hours jamming out to them today and not once did I feel the need to remove them outside of instinctively yanking them out when someone spoke to me. I say "instinctively" because you don't really need to remove them; you can actually hear people talking if you just pause your music. Anyways, that's more than enough talk about build coming from me - let's talk about the actual sound.

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As stated above, the Duo shares some similarities to the 64A Nio, and that's primarily in one aspect: the fat bass shelf. That said, the Nio sports more of a sub-bass focus and for a sense of digging into the deepest frequencies and generating them with a sense of thickness and weight, the Nio comes out ahead in A/B. In this respect, at least intangibly, I do find the Duo's bass to be more reminiscent of the DD used in the Tia Trio. The Duo's bass is more nimble than the Nio's bass response thanks to less decay, and it sounds fairly rich whilst avoiding the wooly thickness of the Nio. I also have no qualms on the fronts of bass texture. As far as I'm concerned, the quicker bass response of the Duo's DD was the right tradeoff, as the Nio's subwoofer generally sounds more sloppy when it comes to the mid-bass. The Duo generally has pretty good bass - not the best I've heard for this price point, that honor goes to the Sennheiser IE900 - but certainly enough to merit comment. And remember, the Duo's DD is tokening the entire midrange too.

Speaking of the midrange of the Duo, it's pretty alright. The overall amplitude of the pinna compensation has not changed too much - it still leans toward the more relaxed side - but it does not peak until 3kHz unlike most of 64A's other IEMs which tend to peak a bit earlier at around 2kHz. This lends the Duo to a slightly more upfront center image, but 64A has recessed the presence regions from 3-4kHz to avoid sibilance per usual. Intangibly, vocals consequently hang slightly higher on the stage while staying upfront for me. I don't think this midrange presentation is quite perfect, but it is an interesting tuning decision I have not encountered before that, again, demonstrates to me that 64A really knows how to tune. Expectedly, the timbre of this midrange is quite pleasant with none of the timbral inconsistency that characterizes most hybrids between bass and midrange. This part was really was nice to hear.

The treble on my unit seems to be somewhat different from the unit I heard on the show floor. I remember the show floor unit sporting more of a lower-treble emphasis which beget a more V-shaped sound signature. However, I will assume for now that the unit I have on-hand represents the ideal sound, as the Duo's product page markets it as having a more laidback sound signature. This is indeed a boon with respect to coherency, as I felt that the tia treble on the show floor unit was a tad too distinct from its DD counterpart. But make no mistake: This can still be a bright IEM depending on the ear tips you're using, your hearing, and the volume you're listening at. In fact, I feel that the tia peaks on this Duo are higher in amplitude than on my U12t - they're definitely higher than the Nio - and almost sharp on certain tracks with wide-bore tips. This was consistent among all three units I heard; hell, I hear what sounds like a 16kHz sheen when Taeyeon enters on "I Found You" that I didn't know was there before. Further along the lines of frequency response, I'd say the Duo's treble is about 40% lower-treble, 20% mid-treble, and 40% upper-treble. I don't know if it's quite right to market this as a relaxed IEM but, to be fair, you can definitely mitigate any unwanted shimmer by tip swapping.

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Imaging on the Duo is interesting. It's good, but it's not mind-blowing within the context of the more open nature of the IEM. The Duo's biggest weakness on this front would be localization of instruments. They're somewhat undefined and clearly not as sharp as the Symphonium Helios. But to reiterate, the Duo definitely sports above-average imaging, and I think the best way to describe it would be simply "natural". Sounds mesh into the backdrop pleasingly and there's a good sense of ambiance to the Duo's staging. However, there'll be no cop-outs on the front of detail, I'm afraid. The tia treble holds its own in terms of detail, but I simply don't find the Duo particularly detailed in the midrange which is why I called the midrange "pretty alight" earlier. It sounds slightly smoothed over in A/B with the 64A U6t which I don't even consider a strong performer for detail, and the Sennheiser IE900 which has a disgusting upper-midrange recession. This is ostensibly a limitation of using a single dynamic driver to cover both the bass and the midrange frequencies, even a high-quality one at that.

The best part of the Duo's intangibles would be its dynamics. They're surprisingly good; I wouldn't have bought one for myself if I thought they weren't. Now, I do not think the Duo has great micro-dynamic distinction - a sense of individual instruments and vocalists popping with subtle fluctuations in volume - but it stands that the vast majority of IEMs lack this quality anyways. In fact, the only IEM I have heard with good micro-contrast at this price point would be the Symphonium Helios. That said, macro-contrast on the Duo has the good sense of weight and authority that characterizes the likes of the 64A Nio. I found myself jacking up the volume and going back to swings like Sawano Hiroyuki's "Tranquility" at 0:50 repeatedly just to catch more of this quality while testing the Duo at CanJam. I do not know how 64A does it, and maybe you can consider it the "oh, he's just a 64A shill" effect, but there is definitely something about the likes of the U12t, Nio, and the Duo that catches my attention and gets my head bobbing.

As for some concluding thoughts, the Duo is definitely a good IEM and I like it! But I also cannot ignore the price in good faith, and I don't want to make the mistake of hyping something that won't get near-universal praise. It's crucial to recognize that the Duo sports a more niche design; it heavily emphasizes comfort and it doesn't befit outside use like traditional IEMs unless you're indexing more strongly for situational awareness. For me, that's what I wanted as a compliment to my Symphonium Helios. I'd imagine this would work great for walking outside too and, as the reps at the 64A booth mentioned to me, streaming and gaming. But it still pays to recognize that not everyone else will have these use cases; solely on the basis of sound quality, I find the Duo to be solid for the price but not necessarily outside the scope of the lofty expectations I hold for 64A.

All that said, there is a lot of unique technology and innovation packed into the Duo. Friends better versed in the construction of IEMs than myself have commented on the complexity of 64A's crossover design, and I enjoy the emphasis placed upon the user-experience with technologies like Apex Core - after all, the best sounding IEM doesn't mean much if one can't wear it comfortably.
Thank you for the thorough review. One thing we'd like to give a bit more info on is the face of Duo. As much as the technology inside the IEM is a triumph, the construction of the three piece face required quite a bit of engineering to be fully realized. The three piece assembly starts with an anodized aluminum grill/faceplate. You may have noticed that this faceplate has an almost seamless connection to the shell, apart from the obvious change in color, which is a departure from our previous designs. Immediately on top of that faceplate/grill is a black PVD coated stainless steel mesh, the sourcing of which required quite a bit of time and effort since the tolerances of something like that in this particular material are difficult to accomplish. The assembly is finished off by a chromed stainless steel bezel which secures the mesh to the grill.

You can actually see the progress of this design in our latest video, we used the actual project board which shows some of the earlier iterations of this concept, but it has been something that our R&D team has been working on since early 2019. We hope you all get to see it in person one of these days, thanks for reading.
 
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Sep 28, 2021 at 12:47 PM Post #18,728 of 23,720
Thank you for the thorough review. One thing we'd like to give a bit more info on is the face of Duo. As much as the technology inside the IEM is a triumph, the construction of the three piece face required quite a bit of engineering to be fully realized. The three piece assembly starts with an anodized aluminum grill/faceplate. You may have noticed that this faceplate has an almost seamless connection to the shell, apart from the obvious change in color, which is a departure from our previous designs. Immediately on top of that faceplate/grill is a black PVD coated stainless steel mesh, the sourcing of which required quite a bit of time and effort since the tolerances of something like that in this particular material are difficult to accomplish. The assembly is finished off by a chromed stainless steel bezel which secures the mesh to the grill.

You can actually see the progress of this design in our latest video, we used the actual project board which shows some of the earlier iterations of this concept, but it has been something that our R&D team has been working on since early 2019. We hope you all get to see it in person one of these days, thanks for reading.
In my view, if you put the black mesh behind the aluminum grill, the appearance would be a bit better. That or make the entire structure black for the ultimate stealth appearance. Not a big deal overall, as sound quality is more important than looks.
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 1:09 PM Post #18,730 of 23,720
Funny, surpised by youre categorising of the iems: u12t as reference and fourte as audiohile and u18t as mainstream. I always thought of the u18t as reference and u12t and fourte as more fun! But then again what is mainstream/reference/audiohile and what is not.........that's the question
…yeah, you sure you meant to classify that way, @Precogvision?

Seems flipped.

Haha, there’s not really any set definitions for the terms as far as I can tell. At least for me, there’s very little that’s reference about the U18t. It’s generously mid-bassy, bright, and sounds like it has a generic sound signature refined to a high degree which is why I dubbed it mainstream. But you guys are right. It's true the same could be said for the U12t which has more of a U-shaped tuning with its boosted sub-bass and treble. When I hear “reference” I actually think of something like the Etymotic ER4XR. On the other hand, I categorized the Fourte as “audiophile” simply because that’s what they’re marketed as being for.
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 1:46 PM Post #18,731 of 23,720
In my view, if you put the black mesh behind the aluminum grill, the appearance would be a bit better. That or make the entire structure black for the ultimate stealth appearance. Not a big deal overall, as sound quality is more important than looks.
It is interesting you mention this, this was one of the ideas when designing Duo. As it turned out, the functionality of the final iteration was what eventually caused us to ultimately decide on it. You may even see crude drawings of what you described in that video we mentioned.
 
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Sep 28, 2021 at 1:49 PM Post #18,732 of 23,720
Well i have got an u18t, and i like the sound of it, a lot of detail (and lacking a bit of bass but with the dark grey modules the bass improves).
So the u18t is also fairly close to utopia then (cause i would think u18t and u12t are comparable (i know majority seems to think u12t is better than u18t)?
I like the u18t, gives a lot of detail but when compared to Utopia it is lacking a bit: check out Nine Inch Nails "this isn't the place", i expected u18t to deliver the upper mid glitches, i think it is a distorted piano (anybody who knows the song will know what i mean, which seem a bit dissonant, but that is the interesting detail in the mix :)) in the song just as detailed as the Utopia but they are lacking, part of the sound seems te be missing even (!). On all other songs they sound fine, so there is no issue with the u18t's
I thought the u18t were the absolute detail king but to my surprise there is a fairly big gap in detail
I haven't heard the u18t, so I can't really say there. My experience to 64 is limited to the u12t and the nio. I was going to link the precog article, but I see that someone already listed it. I decided to throw on the NIN track and I definitely hear the piano dissonance, even with the m20 module, on the U12t. If you are looking at the EVO, I'd definitely see if you can get a listen to a Legend X- these things are gigantic bass monsters.
 
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Sep 28, 2021 at 2:19 PM Post #18,733 of 23,720
I haven't heard the u18t, so I can't really say there. My experience to 64 is limited to the u12t and the nio. I was going to link the precog article, but I see that someone already listed it. I decided to throw on the NIN track and I definitely hear the piano dissonance, even with the m20 module, on the U12t. If you are looking at the EVO, I'd definitely see if you can get a listen to a Legend X- these things are gigantic bass monsters.
I haven't heard the u18t, so I can't really say there. My experience to 64 is limited to the u12t and the nio. I was going to link the precog article, but I see that someone already listed it. I decided to throw on the NIN track and I definitely hear the piano dissonance, even with the m20 module, on the U12t. If you are looking at the EVO, I'd definitely see if you can get a listen to a Legend X- these things are gigantic bass monsters.
I decided to relisten the parts, it is the opening seconds of this isn't the place (for instance seconds 15-20, here you here the dissonant piano and glitches going from left to right and setting up the atmosphere. (really impressive stuff if you ask me) now the fascinating thing I think I discovered: the U18t displays every sound but some tones stay at the same side (so the piano taps and glitches don't all go from left to right, like with my other headphones (and as i think it was intended by reznor (because it clearly sounds better, you now "overlook" some sounds that are meant to emphasize.......................)) Can this be possible? Now that I am thinking of it that doesnt seem likely?
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 2:26 PM Post #18,734 of 23,720
I decided to relisten the parts, it is the opening seconds of this isn't the place (for instance seconds 15-20, here you here the dissonant piano and glitches going from left to right and setting up the atmosphere. (really impressive stuff if you ask me) now the fascinating thing I think I discovered: the U18t displays every sound but some tones stay at the same side (so the piano taps and glitches don't all go from left to right, like with my other headphones (and as i think it was intended by reznor (because it clearly sounds better, you now "overlook" some sounds that are meant to emphasize.......................)) Can this be possible? Now that I am thinking of it that doesnt seem likely?
Nah, I do hear them as well with u18t, the other headphones are more coherent with this track. Sometimes u18t "deconstructs" the music a bit too much :)
 
Sep 28, 2021 at 2:32 PM Post #18,735 of 23,720
I haven't heard the u18t, so I can't really say there. My experience to 64 is limited to the u12t and the nio. I was going to link the precog article, but I see that someone already listed it. I decided to throw on the NIN track and I definitely hear the piano dissonance, even with the m20 module, on the U12t. If you are looking at the EVO, I'd definitely see if you can get a listen to a Legend X- these things are gigantic bass monsters.
Thanks for the advice, hope to get a listen to Legend X and EVO indeed! But probably i should "listen more to the music and less to the headphones"
 

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