[mvvRAZ]

What bugs me on the whole LID topic, is that Bogdan himself stated that FiR's version of LID was much more effective than 64's, and when his IEMs are paired with a cable with especially high resistance, the circuit would work extra hard in order to reduce any changes in the FR down to practically 0. Same applies to sources - the circuit is meant to not allow the source to affect the FR

Now, since Bogdan designed FiR's LID, and that is his statement on how it *should* function, people are either placeboing pretty hard when they say stuff like "the bass tightened", or the circuit isn't working as it is *meant* to be

 

[xenithon]

All of which is a moot point as it boils to down simply to this - do you like the sound of the IEM or do you not. Many manufacturers have created a multitude of technologies, techniques, manufacturing processes, circuitry, etc. It's part of their R&D and their differentiation factor. Whether you like it or not is personal preference. Same applies to something like tia and Apex. But attacking a technology for "messing with the purity...." is just plain weird and disingenuous.

Do you like it? Great, keep them. Do you not like it? Great, sell it and try another. I must admit I am bit perplexed by the contorted arguments and dissection

 

[mvvRAZ]

All of which is a moot point as it boils to down simply to this - do you like the sound of the IEM or do you not. Many manufacturers have created a multitude of technologies, techniques, manufacturing processes, circuitry, etc. It's part of their R&D and their differentiation factor. Whether you like it or not is personal preference. Same applies to something like tia and Apex. But attacking a technology for "messing with the purity...." is just plain weird and disingenuous.

Do you like it? Great, keep them. Do you not like it? Great, sell it and try another. I must admit I am bit perplexed by the contorted arguments and dissection

It's a bit more fundamental than that I think, and an interesting discussion in of itself. I for one won't touch anything with LID for the most part

 

[xenithon]

It's a bit more fundamental than that I think, and an interesting discussion in of itself. I for one won't touch anything with LID for the most part

Interesting, yes. Fundamental? Not in my my view - but no qualms in agreeing to having different perspectives / opinions.

As for not having an IEM with LID, perfectly understandable and a personal choice. Just like someone deciding they don’t want a cable with silver, or DAP with non-defeatable filters.

 

[mvvRAZ]

Interesting, yes. Fundamental? Not in my my view - but no qualms in agreeing to having different perspectives / opinions.

As for not having an IEM with LID, perfectly understandable and a personal choice. Just like someone deciding they don’t want a cable with silver, or DAP with non-defeatable filters.

Well as long as it doesn't escalate and get nasty there's no harm in it ultimately It's all 'bout that audio tech

 

[GiullianSN]

I think everyone is forgetting all those companies are Professional usage companies, products to be wore by professionals on stage or studio or whatever. For those people LID (or equivalent) is extremely important. As @Deezel177 and other mentioned. Audiophiles are the tip of the iceberg. Have you seen those companies booth at NAMM and at Canjam? SO one can see the focus.

 

[RicHappy]

Anyone has more information/experience on their newly launched A18S?

 

[DarginMahkum]

I think seeing the wild impedance swing on a very common IEM like Andromeda, it is very easy to see why something like a LID might be a great thing.

I think LID does not "correct" the output impedance of your DAPs, but rather makes a workaround for the impedance swing of your IEM. Due to the high output impedance of M15 balanced output, we have been discussing these and I have some posts on the FiiO M15 forum but as a summary it is:

"With a high output impedance amp, the headphones will get a little more gain as the impedance goes up. Therefore, you can think of the impedance curve as an EQ curve with high impedance amplifiers. The higher the amp output impedance, the more the headphones will be EQ'd toward the shape of the impedance curve."

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance

For example, the Andromeda (which some people find lacking bass and too bright) impedance curve looks like this:

As you see, it is not a constant impedance but a massive swing between 3 ohms and 25 ohms. 3 ohms is low even for modern DAPs (SP2000 has 1.5 ohm SE and 1.0 ohm balanced impedance). With a high impedance output DAP/amp, this curve will act like an EQ on your audio signal and you will hear a bright sounding Andromeda lacking bass, whereas someone with a very low impedance amp (Hugo or Mojo) the brightness will not be there and you will hear a more balanced sound.

Looking at the example plot on 64 Audio website (before after plot on the right) also confirms this. But as you see, the impedance swing is still there and as the average impedance now drops, the mild effects will be still effecting your audio signal but to a considerable lesser extent. But as you see, the impedance swing of an IEM could be pretty wild and, especially for a multi-driver or hybrid IEM LID can be pretty effective.

https://www.64audio.com/lid

Theoretically, ignoring any other inductance/capacitance effects, if your headphone/IEM has a constant impedance across the frequency band, your audio signal should not be affected by the output impedance of your source, other than just a drop in the signal level.

All these also mean: As long as you do not know the output impedance of the measurement system and the output impedance of your source, you may not fully hear the exact measured frequency response curve you see on the internet. There is a big chance that the impedance characteristics of your IEM / haedphone (which can go wild for multi-driver and especially hybrid systems) will EQ the sound you hear to a degree determined by the output impedance of your DAP / amplifier.

 

[mvvRAZ]

I think seeing the wild impedance swing on a very common IEM like Andromeda, it is very easy to see why something like a LID might be a great thing.

LID does not "correct" the output impedance of your DAPs, but rather makes a workaround for the impedance swing of your IEM. Due to the high output impedance of M15 balanced output, we have been discussing these and I have some posts on the FiiO M15 forum but as a summary it is:

"With a high output impedance amp, the headphones will get a little more gain as the impedance goes up. Therefore, you can think of the impedance curve as an EQ curve with high impedance amplifiers. The higher the amp output impedance, the more the headphones will be EQ'd toward the shape of the impedance curve."

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance

For example, the Andromeda (which some people find lacking bass and too bright) impedance curve looks like this:

As you see, it is not a constant impedance but a massive swing between 3 ohms and 25 ohms. 3 ohms is low even for modern DAPs (SP2000 has 1.5 ohm SE and 1.0 ohm balanced impedance). With a high impedance output DAP/amp, this curve will act like an EQ on your audio signal and you will hear a bright sounding Andromeda lacking bass, whereas someone with a very low impedance amp (Hugo or Mojo) the brightness will not be there and you will hear a more balanced sound.

Looking at the example plot on 64 Audio website (before after plot on the right) also confirms this. But as you see, the impedance swing is still there and as the average impedance now drops, the mild effects will be still effecting your audio signal but to a considerable lesser extent. But as you see, the impedance swing of an IEM could be pretty wild and, especially for a multi-driver or hybrid IEM LID can be pretty effective.


https://www.64audio.com/lid

Theoretically, ignoring any other inductance/capacitance effects, if your headphone/IEM has a constant impedance across the frequency band, your audio signal should not be affected by the output impedance of your source, other than just a drop in the signal level.

https://www.64audio.com/lid

Wow! Thank you for this, it’s the most useful explanation I’ve read on the topic of LID so far, the graphs are especially useful

 

[SBranson]

I know the U12t is old news but I got mine in last night and they are truly amazing. They amazingly detailed but quite natural sounding as well. I had secretly hoped I wouldn’t like them so much so I could settle for my Moondrop S8 but boy I’m still a bit stunned I feel like I’m not only hearing the instruments in the recording but details of the recording venue and microphones and such as well. They don’t seem to offer necessarily a tone or signature of there own that affects the recordings like say something like the EE Phantoms do but instead offer clearly what the recording offers them. I’m quite surprised by these. The only reason anyone could find fault with them is if they wanted a coloured sound. These are clear monitors.
The S8 is very detailed but they just don’t have the imaging clarity these do.

That’s my take on an hour or so of listening last night. I look forward to more listening tonight

 

[mico1964]

I just ordered an U12T. With them being at the top of crinacle's list, I've been tempted for a while to try them. I've got about another 20+ IEMs, though only a handful of TOTL to compare them with (IER-Z1R, Solaris, Andromeda, SE846, Xelento, MDR-EX1000).

Just ordered me too, but they are out of stock, so two weeks waiting...

 

[3mocrash]

My cables are giving out on my A12t's and i'm currrently running the stock cables. Anyone have any experience with aftermarket cables?

 

[cr3ativ3]

My cables are giving out on my A12t's and i'm currrently running the stock cables. Anyone have any experience with aftermarket cables?

With the U18t every other cable worked so far ...

 

[madFloyd]

With the U18t every other cable worked so far ...

I'm sure many cables will work (i.e. produce sound) but whether they provide a balanced sound like the stock cables is another question.

 

[cr3ativ3]

I'm sure many cables will work (i.e. produce sound) but whether they provide a balanced sound like the stock cables is another question.

Pure silver cables worked fine so far