[toaster]

i have no dap (will pick up an sp1000m at some point, though.)

i listen straight out of a laptop, phone, or with a mojo...sounds phenomenal in all cases.

 

[bogdan belonozhko]

Twister is spot on with this one. LID didn’t exist when 18 and fourte were released. Now I would guess that the noir was intentionally left out. Just wanted to clear up the facts before @twister6 gets mobbed

 

[hAbIrAbI]

To be fair they are adding LID to the A18s but the A18s isn’t just an A18t with LID but also has new drivers as per the information from NAMM. It’s also targeted at musicians and sound engineers and they mentioned a different tuning to the A18t. I'm hoping they only slightly modify the sound because I like how neutral the A18t is. I'll wait for the A18s demos to be available before I go to make a decision on a new cIEM die myself.

 

[twister6]

Thanks regardless for trying. I'm sure Twister had good intentions and I still got something valuable from his post. Likewise, thanks for the correction Toaster.

Would you guys say most 64 Audio IEM users have a pretty good DAP, or do most just plug into their phone?

Was always curious of this because it sounds pretty decent just off a phone from my experience.

Wait, "thanks regardless for trying" and "...had good intentions" ? Where did I fail, Frank? You were confused about how LID tech works and I explained that it's not a magic bullet that going to make your smartphone or laptop or $99 dap sound exactly like $3.5k flagship Considering most of the today's DAPs (used by audiophiles) have output impedance less than 1 ohm, and most of the professional gear (used by sound engineers and performing musicians) has higher output impedance, and smartphones and laptops are in a grey area - all this means that LID tech will insure that output impedance of the source doesn't have effect on the sound. The sound will be affected by all other components of the source design.

As I said before, A/U18t and Fourte didn't have LID because those are early models, and Bogdan (who is former 64audio CEO) confirmed that above. Fourte Noir didn't have LID and it was a refresh of Fourte, plus it looks like Noir is no longer available for sale on 64audio site (removed from listing). The latest announcement is A18S and "the A18s is designed off of 64 Audio’s existing 18-driver A18t platform, but is now applicable to demanding stage and studio environments" - meaning if they are adding LID it was done intentionally so that both audiophiles and studio musicians are not affected by low/high output impedance of their sources.

Again, I can't speak on 64audio behalf, but the explanation of "...they left the LID tech out of their TOTL offerings in order to give users the highest ability to modify the sound of their iems." makes no sense to me because A/U18t and Fourte were released before LID tech was introduced, and only showed up in later models of U12t/Trio/N8. LID "corrects" output impedance of the source, while majority of audiophile DAPs have low output impedance already, so I'm not sure how are you going to modify your sound, unless you are looking for high output impedance sources? Sure, you can find an old Hiby R6 or Tera Player, both of which have higher than 10 ohm output impedance, but it will only mess up your sound signature. Also, LID is not an option, so you can't compare, for example, U12t with and without LID to speak of its benefits or disadvantages since you can't do a side by side a/b comparison.

And as it was mentioned by others above, using your phone or a laptop will not ruin the sound, but it will scale down the technical performance of soundstage expansion, imaging, layering and separation of the sounds, and just overall resolution.

 

[F208Frank]

Thank you Twister for the detailed response. Appreciate what you do for the community.

 

[twister6]

Thank you Twister for the detailed response. Appreciate what you do for the community.

No sweat, man. If you are attending CJ NYC in a few weeks, don't hesitate to say Hi when you see me roaming around in my Tw6 t-shirt, we can continue this discussion

Too bad 64audio is not attending the show...

 

[F208Frank]

Wow that's a surprise (that they are not attending)

 

[Deezel177]

Thanks for replying Deezel.

Doesn't that mean for IEMs with LID, buying a DAP is not even necessary as it would sound the same straight out of a phone anyways?

Or is this logic flawed?

As others have said, though LID keeps the frequency response (or the overall tonality) the same, aspects like imaging precision, separation, dynamic range, stage expansion, etc. will benefit from a more high-end decoder (or DAC). I’ve discussed this previously on my reviews of Custom Art’s FIBAE IEMs, which use a similar sort of technology.

 

[Friskyseal]

As others have said, though LID keeps the frequency response (or the overall tonality) the same, aspects like imaging precision, separation, dynamic range, stage expansion, etc. will benefit from a more high-end decoder (or DAC). I’ve discussed this previously on my reviews of Custom Art’s FIBAE IEMs, which use a similar sort of technology.

I'm skeptical of this because aren't all of the qualities we associate with a headphone's "quality" related to how power is delivered through the headphone? If LID equalizes the power uptake from every source, how would "imaging precision" or "dynamic range" change but not "frequency response"? This is one of those statements that seems highly suspect. I'm not saying it's wrong, but what evidence is there? When I plug my A6t into different devices, I think I can detect differences in sound, the same as any other earphone (for example, my 1964 V3 without LID). But I'm more inclined to believe that this is simply due to LID not working perfectly than anything else. The only way to test this would be to A/B test the same earphone with and without LID (even though A/B testing itself is already of limited reliability). Of course, only 64 Audio would have the means to do this, since they don't offer any identical earphones with a voluntary LID option.

All of this is to say I pretty much chock LID up to "marketing gimmick that maybe does something, but probably not."

 

[mvvRAZ]

I'm skeptical of this because aren't all of the qualities we associate with a headphone's "quality" related to how power is delivered through the headphone? If LID equalizes the power uptake from every source, how would "imaging precision" or "dynamic range" change but not "frequency response"? This is one of those statements that seems highly suspect. I'm not saying it's wrong, but what evidence is there? When I plug my A6t into different devices, I think I can detect differences in sound, the same as any other earphone (for example, my 1964 V3 without LID). But I'm more inclined to believe that this is simply due to LID not working perfectly than anything else. The only way to test this would be to A/B test the same earphone with and without LID (even though A/B testing itself is already of limited reliability). Of course, only 64 Audio would have the means to do this, since they don't offer any identical earphones with a voluntary LID option.

All of this is to say I pretty much chock LID up to "marketing gimmick that maybe does something, but probably not."

I think LID can negate the effect of the amplifier section to a large extent (and it’s less effective than FiR’s version of it), while the DAC can still have its effects on the sound

 

[Vitaly2017]

I have a different opinion.
I see LiD as a power regulator, see ifi audio has this features to make the power more balanced. To avoid spikes and anomalies in the current. Its the same way as audiophiles buy expensive powercables to kill the uneven surge spikes or gaps in the home power outlet...

So LiD tech is actually a good thing, it balances the sound and make your iem more linear and smother sounding.
And it does not affect cable rolling, ear tips or daps!

Thats my personal opinion.

 

[mvvRAZ]

I have a different opinion.
I see LiD as a power regulator, see ifi audio has this features to make the power more balanced. To avoid spikes and anomalies in the current. Its the same way as audiophiles buy expensive powercables to kill the uneven surge spikes or gaps in the home power outlet...

So LiD tech is actually a good thing, it balances the sound and make your iem more linear and smother sounding.
And it does not affect cable rolling, ear tips or daps!

Thats my personal opinion.

The power spikes are something else entirely, but LID is not meant to correct those. It’s essentially a buffer for the signal

 

[Vitaly2017]

The power spikes are something else entirely, but LID is not meant to correct those. It’s essentially a buffer for the signal

I would of loved if it could do what I described. It would enhance the sq experience

 

[mvvRAZ]

I would of loved if it could do what I described. It would enhance the sq experience

Honestly just about any modern source is able to handle that kind of power spikes and power surges. There’s plenty of tech in most mid to hifi sources to ensure the power being fed to the iems is consistent

 

[Deezel177]

I'm skeptical of this because aren't all of the qualities we associate with a headphone's "quality" related to how power is delivered through the headphone? If LID equalizes the power uptake from every source, how would "imaging precision" or "dynamic range" change but not "frequency response"?

That isn't always the case. While you'd probably notice an increase in resolution, stage fidelity and background blackness between an underfed headphone and a properly-driven one, that does not mean moar power is the only way you could improve these traits. In fact, I doubt more power would benefit an all-BA in-ear like the A6t, given how easy it is to drive in the first place. A more resolving DAC is also more capable of decoding a cleaner signal from the digital source with cleaner spatial cues (hence the improved imaging precision), lower signal-to-noise ratio (hence the improved dynamic range) and so on. Think of it as swapping out the DAC in your headphone chain. In my experience, doing so rarely affects the tonality, but instead alters the aforementioned qualities.

This is one of those statements that seems highly suspect. I'm not saying it's wrong, but what evidence is there? When I plug my A6t into different devices, I think I can detect differences in sound, the same as any other earphone (for example, my 1964 V3 without LID). But I'm more inclined to believe that this is simply due to LID not working perfectly than anything else. The only way to test this would be to A/B test the same earphone with and without LID (even though A/B testing itself is already of limited reliability). Of course, only 64 Audio would have the means to do this, since they don't offer any identical earphones with a voluntary LID option.

All of this is to say I pretty much chock LID up to "marketing gimmick that maybe does something, but probably not."

Well, in terms of evidence, all you need to do is hook up the IEM to a measuring rig and test its impedance response. If it comes out flat from 20Hz to 20kHz, then LID is working pretty darn well. I've also heard considerably less low-end roll-off when plugging in-ears with tech like LID or FIBAE into my mixing console as mentioned earlier. Perhaps, as @twister6 mentioned, LID may not be as useful or discernible to you because the devices you're using all have relatively similar output impedances, and the differences you're hearing on both LID and LID-less IEMs are simply down to the different DAC circuits. But, for my specific use-case as an engineer, where I'm working with a myriad of devices with a plethora of specs, I do find the feature quite evident and useful.

Also, concerning your findings between LID and LID-less IEMs, I'm not saying you are, but it's possible that you've heard these differences previously on the latter and are now "imprinting" them onto the former because you've come to expect them, like a placebo of sorts. Again, I'm not saying you are, but it's something to think about before you begin to dismiss LID entirely.