The Official 64 Audio Thread | apex & tia Technologies
Jul 31, 2020 at 6:17 PM Post #12,256 of 23,552
On a flip note, I feel like the less air being moved in that small chamber between the IEM and the ear drum, the less of the pressure effect that APEX is trying to reduce. And this to me means longer time having proper ears. I do like DD bass but the BA drivers on the a12t are perfectly fine for anything I do, don't bleed into the mids (almost) at all, are super fast so drum and bass is perfectly controlled but still chaotic, etc. etc.

Also if you switch to some more copper-heavy cable, the bass becomes so strong that my whole head feels like shaking, I cannot imagine wanting more bass presence even if there's no DD conduction happening.
 
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Jul 31, 2020 at 6:35 PM Post #12,257 of 23,552
I tried writing paragraphs of text agreeing to and disagreeing with several of your points, but after half-an-hour and several deletions at four in the morning, I think enough is enough. :D

All I'll say is that it heavily depends on your definition of what reference means, and I'll outline mine below. But, to leave with food for thought, I think comparing an IEM's rendition of a track or instrument directly to how it sounds live would mean skipping the recording, mixing and mastering stages entirely. There's an incredible difference between what we hear in a room vs. what several microphones "hear" up close to the instrument, and mixing and mastering is a long, long road to getting one to sound as close as possible to the other. And, that's not to mention the intent of the producer/engineer making the record. They might not even necessarily want the instrument on their record to sound like the real thing. Going back to your beater example, perhaps the drummers did show tons of dynamics when you're hearing them live, but who's to say they didn't all get compressed in the mix? Or, heck, get replaced entirely by triggered samples? Also, it's vital to remember that they're all recording, mixing and mastering their track to their own references too.

With that said, though, I do agree with your overarching point that real instruments are about as reliable as references can get. I do think proper context is needed to use them in that way, but I find it far more universal than, say, a specific speaker or headphone. And, there are also aspects to headphones and IEMs that make them more "life-like" or "realistic" than others, whether it be the physicality and structure of instruments, the impact and verve of the lows, etc. Whether or not something is closer to reference because of that, I think, is ultimately up to the individual and, again, their definition of reference
Fight me! Haha kidding.

I know exactly what you mean. In simpler terms what I mean is for something to sound proper to me, I have to feel some of that visceral engagement you’d feel during a live presentation. You do make a fantastic point in regards to studio recording variation in addition to instrument uniqueness. Although I prefer a more impactful experience, I can definitely respect and enjoy the details and micro details offered when some of that impact is restrained. That’s why I have a disgusting amount of flagship IEMs with several more on the way. 🤦🏼
 
Jul 31, 2020 at 6:49 PM Post #12,258 of 23,552
Fight me! Haha kidding.

I know exactly what you mean. In simpler terms what I mean is for something to sound proper to me, I have to feel some of that visceral engagement you’d feel during a live presentation. You do make a fantastic point in regards to studio recording variation in addition to instrument uniqueness. Although I prefer a more impactful experience, I can definitely respect and enjoy the details and micro details offered when some of that impact is restrained. That’s why I have a disgusting amount of flagship IEMs with several more on the way. 🤦🏼

Yeah, in that respect, I agree with you completely. Somewhere between tonality, and imaging, and micro-dynamics, and macro-dynamics and all those jazzy words is that magical sweet spot that simply sounds right. Like love itself, you kinda just know. Where it gets a bit strange is that you can actually find it in many IEMs and headphones, and not just one. Perhaps it's a testament to the Marco Pierre White quote that perfection is "many little things done well," and that each in-ear does its little thing... well. Or, it could simply be more reason to get more flagships. It's 50/50, really. :p
 
Jul 31, 2020 at 7:07 PM Post #12,259 of 23,552
This is something I discuss in my upcoming A18s review. Its low-end drops slightly as it reaches the sub-bass, which means it won't have that visceral, physical, bone-conducting effect. But, at the same time, with that rumble out of the way, I feel like the sound, colour or tonality of instruments like the bass drum come through more clearly, which makes it more ideal for EQ or tone-shaping. Whereas, if I wanted to more accurately level the sub-bass or check for phase in those regions, I'd go to an in-ear with more presence there like the JH Audio Layla. That's been my experience, at least, when using the in-ear for mixing.



I tried writing paragraphs of text agreeing to and disagreeing with several of your points, but after half-an-hour and several deletions at four in the morning, I think enough is enough. :D

All I'll say is that it heavily depends on your definition of what reference means, and I'll outline mine below. But, to leave with food for thought, I think comparing an IEM's rendition of a track or instrument directly to how it sounds live would mean skipping the recording, mixing and mastering stages entirely. There's an incredible difference between what we hear in a room vs. what several microphones "hear" up close to the instrument, and mixing and mastering is a long, long road to getting one to sound as close as possible to the other. And, that's not to mention the intent of the producer/engineer making the record. They might not even necessarily want the instrument on their record to sound like the real thing. Going back to your beater example, perhaps the drummers did show tons of dynamics when you're hearing them live, but who's to say they didn't all get compressed in the mix? Or, heck, get replaced entirely by triggered samples? Also, it's vital to remember that they're all recording, mixing and mastering their track to their own references too.

With that said, though, I do agree with your overarching point that real instruments are about as reliable as references can get. I do think proper context is needed to use them in that way, but I find it far more universal than, say, a specific speaker or headphone. And, there are also aspects to headphones and IEMs that make them more "life-like" or "realistic" than others, whether it be the physicality and structure of instruments, the impact and verve of the lows, etc. Whether or not something is closer to reference because of that, I think, is ultimately up to the individual and, again, their definition of reference.



I've talked about this on another thread, but, to me, determining whether or not an IEM is reference-grade (or transparent) is as easy as seeing how well it can... well, be transparent; how much colouration it imparts onto the track vs. how much of the track's innate colour it's letting show. And, I think the simplest way to do so is to play two different tracks, from two different genres and two different mixing-and-mastering styles on the same IEM, and seeing if any distinct commonalities are present between them.

For example, if I played Kendrick Lamar's Alright and Sarah McKenzie's Paris in the Rain and I hear a similar amount of low-end prominence, then that in-ear obviously has a coloured (or not-reference) bass response. My personal test for the upper-midrange are two consecutive tracks from Tom Misch's Geography album: Lost in Paris and South of the River. Though you might think two consecutive tracks from a single LP would have fairly-identical mixing and mastering, these two actually show subtle differences in the saturation and timbre of Misch's vocals. A transparent IEM should be able to pick up on those differences. For the low-treble, I'd go to Royce da 5'9"'s Godspeed and Dumb off of his Book of Ryan record. There's a difference in articulation that could imply a different mic being used or a different EQ. Either way, some IEMs are better at showcasing all of these difference than others, and those are what I'd consider to be accurate, reference IEMs.

I do agree with your point that the reference label nowadays often ignores dynamics and physicality, which I think are crucial in defining an IEM's sound. If every track I listen to - from naturalistic classical to processed pop - showcases the same amount of dynamic range, the same forwardness to instruments, etc., then I'm not listening with a wholly-reference monitor. If a drummer plays a single-stroke roll across toms pre-panned from left to right (like Tommy Igoe on The W.I.M. Trio's Funky Riot) and I lose the toms (or their punch) at 10, or 12, or 2 o'clock, then it's not an accurate imager of a monitor too. I think it's important to distinguish tonal accuracy from spatial or dynamic accuracy, especially because the effects of the latter are more-often-than-not more subtle - yet just as crucial - as the former.

So, to me, reference doesn't necessarily mean how close an IEM sounds to something else, because - as you said - everyone's something else will be different. And, again, every producer will make their track with a different reference or aim in their mind too. Personally, I think the measure of an IEM's transparency or accuracy simply boils down to how well it can get out of the way. If it makes every type of horn sound honky, or every snare crackly and thin, or every male vocalist hoarse, then it's safe to say that it's a coloured in-ear monitor. But, if you can go from one track to another without noticing trends or hallmarks - whether tonally, spatially or dynamically - then those are the in-ears I'd confidently call reference.

Spoken well, like an actual engineer! I'd guess either you are one or dabble and have a good understanding. I agree, referencing meaning perfect reproduction of the instruments sound is extremely difficult. Basically impossible, and half the time - not even what we want in the mix. Kicks often cut out and sample tails added, etc. adding thickness or grit to vocals to have them sound better for a sonic feeling we desire that just isn't there in the actual voice, or accentuating what is there. Like I said in my post, it's depends on what sound the producer and musicians want to create. You can have a great band play and just record them and it sounds terribly flat. I mean, the amount of good bands/musicians with their garage/gig rehearsal recorded tracks... Then they come out of the studio after the Dr. Goes to work and you get something that sounds amazing, but it's not authentic to the actual sound of what happened live. And trust me, that's not what we all would want all the time. Perfect reproduction of live.

On the impossibility or reproducing perfect live instruments.. take for example a guitar player. You stand infron of his 4x12 stack about 2 feet away you will get a different sound completely then if you stand 2 feet to the left of it. Or behind it. Etc etc. Same with horns, paino, etc. All instruments live sound different depending on where you're located in the space and hearing them and how much space and air is around them. As well as the space itself, is there many reflections, etc.

Its extremely challenging work. impossible basically and that's why having a sound in mind and mixing and mastering for that, is always preferred. You can shoot for certain instrument representation but you will still tweak it to enhance it's sound and remove negative frequencies, phase, filtering, sibilance, etc.

The reference debate is one I don't step into. It's long over done and almost like the digital vs analog debate.

To me, reference is similar to how you say it. Not noticably altered in any specific area consistently. Being able to reproduce a sound as it was possibly invisioned in the studio from the producers and engineers. But that itself is nearly impossible to know unless you were in the studio while it was being made! So I don't ever really use the term reference, or like it's massive marketing manipulation. Because everyone invisions the meaning of it differently and it's vastly distorted.

What's important when needing reference for mixing/mastering is just something that doesn't obviously alter the sounds it's reproducing. Either by adding color or removing color or sir or anything else that I intend to be in the mix. This is nearly impossible again with gear. Thus why we have so many speakers and listening sources, so when we mix and master we can tune the sound well enough to generally reproduce the sonic picture we originally intended to create. No matter the gear it's played on. Hell. Old trick in the studio world is to literally take songs and play them on crappy phone earbuds or in a crappy car just to hear what it sounds like in those environments to the actual majority of end users. And make sure that the majority of our sonic intent remains intact

Edit to add ^^ * Unless like some companies do when working on crappy radio stuff, just compress the hell out of everything and have massive distortion with no problems because you just want it loud... Then I don't know what to say to that
 
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Aug 1, 2020 at 4:09 AM Post #12,261 of 23,552
On a flip note, I feel like the less air being moved in that small chamber between the IEM and the ear drum, the less of the pressure effect that APEX is trying to reduce. And this to me means longer time having proper ears. I do like DD bass but the BA drivers on the a12t are perfectly fine for anything I do, don't bleed into the mids (almost) at all, are super fast so drum and bass is perfectly controlled but still chaotic, etc. etc.

Also if you switch to some more copper-heavy cable, the bass becomes so strong that my whole head feels like shaking, I cannot imagine wanting more bass presence even if there's no DD conduction happening.
I know what you mean. I love how the U/A12t does BA bass. And I don't think anyone can argue it's 'bass light'. But the benefit of a DD is not quantity, it goes back to that simple example @CL14715 gave yesterday: the kick of a kick drum. This may or may not be important for you in the grander scheme of things, but that little niggle I got whenever a kick drum hit on the U12t and didn't really feel like a kick drum (even though it was described magnificently) was the reason I ultimately replaced it with Nio.

Do I miss all the others things the U12t does better than Nio? Sure I do. Might even pick one up again down the line because of it. But the satisfaction I get every time the drums kick in (literally) in a track makes the whole exercise worth it. See my post above as to why.
 
Aug 1, 2020 at 4:52 AM Post #12,262 of 23,552
Spoken well, like an actual engineer! I'd guess either you are one or dabble and have a good understanding. I agree, referencing meaning perfect reproduction of the instruments sound is extremely difficult. Basically impossible, and half the time - not even what we want in the mix. Kicks often cut out and sample tails added, etc. adding thickness or grit to vocals to have them sound better for a sonic feeling we desire that just isn't there in the actual voice, or accentuating what is there. Like I said in my post, it's depends on what sound the producer and musicians want to create. You can have a great band play and just record them and it sounds terribly flat. I mean, the amount of good bands/musicians with their garage/gig rehearsal recorded tracks... Then they come out of the studio after the Dr. Goes to work and you get something that sounds amazing, but it's not authentic to the actual sound of what happened live. And trust me, that's not what we all would want all the time. Perfect reproduction of live.

On the impossibility or reproducing perfect live instruments.. take for example a guitar player. You stand infron of his 4x12 stack about 2 feet away you will get a different sound completely then if you stand 2 feet to the left of it. Or behind it. Etc etc. Same with horns, paino, etc. All instruments live sound different depending on where you're located in the space and hearing them and how much space and air is around them. As well as the space itself, is there many reflections, etc.

Its extremely challenging work. impossible basically and that's why having a sound in mind and mixing and mastering for that, is always preferred. You can shoot for certain instrument representation but you will still tweak it to enhance it's sound and remove negative frequencies, phase, filtering, sibilance, etc.

The reference debate is one I don't step into. It's long over done and almost like the digital vs analog debate.

To me, reference is similar to how you say it. Not noticably altered in any specific area consistently. Being able to reproduce a sound as it was possibly invisioned in the studio from the producers and engineers. But that itself is nearly impossible to know unless you were in the studio while it was being made! So I don't ever really use the term reference, or like it's massive marketing manipulation. Because everyone invisions the meaning of it differently and it's vastly distorted.

What's important when needing reference for mixing/mastering is just something that doesn't obviously alter the sounds it's reproducing. Either by adding color or removing color or sir or anything else that I intend to be in the mix. This is nearly impossible again with gear. Thus why we have so many speakers and listening sources, so when we mix and master we can tune the sound well enough to generally reproduce the sonic picture we originally intended to create. No matter the gear it's played on. Hell. Old trick in the studio world is to literally take songs and play them on crappy phone earbuds or in a crappy car just to hear what it sounds like in those environments to the actual majority of end users. And make sure that the majority of our sonic intent remains intact

Edit to add ^^ * Unless like some companies do when working on crappy radio stuff, just compress the hell out of everything and have massive distortion with no problems because you just want it loud... Then I don't know what to say to that

Thanks! I'm still relatively new to the game, but I've mixed live for a few years now, and I've engineered a few studio recordings as well. I agree 100% with everything you're saying, and these were the nuances I wanted to touch upon in several of my deleted, 4 AM paragraphs. :D Something that caught me by surprise when I was first starting out was indeed how much needed to be added to recorded tracks to give it "life"; not even to make it sound processed or anything, just to make it sound natural in the first place. We almost have to "rebuild" the feeling of the live performance, and finding that (I've found) is always the most difficult part of mixing.

The point you brought up about the space and where we sit relative to the performance is something I've discovered mixing live as well. I can't tell you the amount of times I've run up-and-down my church hall just to find an EQ setting that works in every possible crevice of the venue. There's a huge difference between what we hear sitting in a room (with all its reflections, not to mention the floor vibrating from the bass) through a PA system vs. what we hear close to the stage vs. what the mics hear up-close, etc.. That's why I tend to think the most ideal type of recording you could use as a reference for an IEM's accuracy would be binaural ones, because they're recorded in a way that - as much as possible - is made to resemble how we would hear it sitting there as an audience member; with two omni-mics left and right in an ear coupler.

It's funny you mention evaluating mixes by listening to them in a crappy car, because that's something I recently brought up in another thread as well. If your mix sounds good through a car's stereo system, or - better yet - comes through a café or restaurant's PA system clean enough to sound good and Shazam, then you have yourself a hit.

For me the easiest way to settle the reference debate and whether or not the term itself denotes 'better', is this: just add a 'p' and you'll instantly know which IEM is best for you.

I fully agree. Reference to me should be treated like any other label; bassy, bright, rich, crisp, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean better or worse. It's just a description of what the IEM is tuned for, and what you could expect your tracks to sound like through them. Though it happens to be the kind of sound I'm usually after given my line of work, I agree that it shouldn't be the synonym for high-end or ultimate that it seems to have become nowadays.
 
Aug 1, 2020 at 5:07 AM Post #12,263 of 23,552
Though it happens to be the kind of sound I'm usually after given my line of work, I agree that it shouldn't be the synonym for high-end or ultimate that it seems to have become nowadays.
For sure, it's like the term 'vintage' is overused and abused in wine tasting circles to denote quality, where in fact it's just a marker to a specific set of defined parameters (location, cultivar, year, etc.), much like 'reference'.
 
Aug 1, 2020 at 5:19 AM Post #12,264 of 23,552
Overall superlatives are over abused withing these forums... Then again could these instances be justified as the writers are trying to convey the most minuscule of changes in relative terms?
 
Aug 1, 2020 at 10:01 AM Post #12,266 of 23,552
Here goes nothin’
B2C8E397-7D21-49C8-A91B-1E8F2E41B2D2.jpeg
 
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