[odessamarin]

Spoiler: I was wrong.. wrong measurement

This is all very inresting point. But..
yaggy in my mesurment indicate shorted pin 1 and 3. - 0,03 Ohm.
While other fully balanced DAC has 9,4 kOhm
The reason why Yggy did like this i don't know. I though XLR connectiom is done to isolate both signals positive and negative. But seem not the case here.
And if its AC scheme as yuo mention so with different frequency resistance will change.. well sound even worse, becouse it will be non linear.
So from my simple usual meaurment (case ground is connected to cold xlr signal) pin 1 and 2 in yggy.
I am trying to understand why has no issue with other DAC i have with balanced connection..
but yggy had this paricular differance in my case. When it connected balanced, its like lower frequencies just truncated and not scale with volume. We all know rthis feeling when on a good gear you easly can go loud and enjoy linear response. But here , mids just saturate everything.
While connected with SE RCA all good. Ordered XLR attenuaters, but have bad feeling it wont help. Something is strange there... kind of upset cant use it balanced. Otherwise would not bother with all this measurment.
May be try to call shiit for any idea what could it be..

 

[johnjen]

The question I have is, are you trying to measure the output Z or Ω?
If so this approach simply won't work for that.

Additionally, pin #1 is ground, pin #2 is signal +, and pin #3 is signal –.
So if you are trying to measure either output Z or Ω, again this approach won't give you any meaningful results, no matter what pins you measure.

And comparing the JggyB with any another dac is also not going to yield meaningful results.
Why?
Because they probably use different output circuit designs.
And the JggyB has a rated output Z of 75Ω, which is unusually low so it can properly drive a 600Ω load.

And the balanced outputs (+ –), create the output signal 'relative' to each other, not "isolated" from each other, but they can be isolated from ground.

JJ

 

[odessamarin]

@johnjen

sorry.. typo. right i measured resistance between negative and ground. So Pin 1 and 3. corrected in my post.

Spoiler: Balanced vs Unbalanced

also good example

.

 

[michkhol]

I have an idea to test.. if this issue i have could be that my amp dont like shield shorted with negative signal, I will disconnect pin 3 in one of the XLR connector. In this case at least my amp circuity will be not be affected. What you think? worse to try?

Before attempting any tricks, I would suggest contacting Schiit first. They know better than anyone here in the forum.

 

[odessamarin]

Yesterday tryed yggy with Mad ear+ (lamp amp).. soooo sweeet!!! very very nice. (good there is just normal RCA input ))))))

 

[michkhol]

true, but i don't mean inside yggy. No way )
I plan to disconnect pin 1 within cable plug just in one side. To leave just signal come to amp (-) and (+)
In this case if yggy designers decide to connect negative signal to chasis ground Okey, but my amp designed to keep it separated, so will try to keep it as it meant. At least for amp part.

If your amp has an input transformer or a true differential input stage, it most likely won't matter. If it uses some cheap tricks to appear balanced, it may have a detrimental effect on the sound, like increased noise. And you will let all RF interference inside the amp by disconnecting the cable shield.

 

[odessamarin]

here the brystone scheme if you you like.. (would be grate to see yaggy scheme as well... dreams)
dose not look like cheap tricks to me. and as you see green line (ground) no way connected to pink signal (-). I think some sort of incompatibility there. Most probably the only way for me use it unbalanced and enjoy as it is. And my conclusions is wrong.. or the problem is something else (

Spoiler: Bryston BHA-1 Schema

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...d-the-first-post.881737/page-29#post-14841402

I just try to understand what is going on.
and some other ideas if one interesting..

"The balanced three pin XLR connector have signal+, signal- and earth. The questions is how to wire them, in the professional world earth is protective earth, in the audiophile world the earth pin is mostly connected to signal gnd.... The receiving end are supposed to be a transformer using signal+ and signal-, which result in excellent common mode rejection. But most modern inputs are using active balanced to single ended conversion, resulting in much worse common mode rejection, due to used resistor tolerances, and worse, capacitor tolerances which really ruin the common mode rejection at lower frequencies where you need it the most.... See http://www.rane.com/note151.html for more."

 

[michkhol]

Or, maybe as my amp is poorely balanced Pro level, that it just not like consumer level realization compromises...
here the brystone scheme if you you like.. (would be grate to see yaggy scheme as well... dreams)

By the schematic the input stage is truly balanced and you have an RF filter at the input. And also it explains why it is so sensitive. There is no separate input buffer for RCA, so to keep the RCA sensitive enough they had to increase the sensitivity of the whole balanced input stage.

 

[odessamarin]

By the schematic the input stage is truly balanced and you have an RF filter at the input. And also it explains why it is so sensitive. There is no separate input buffer for RCA, so to keep the RCA sensitive enough they had to increase the sensitivity of the whole balanced input stage.

thank you for take look. And this what Bryston also claim.. It so fully balanced that there is no actually SE path.. they say when SE in use, it's just 50% of amp in use.
I know it is a good amp, that is the reason of my frustration regarding yggy compatibility in my case (
.. and about sensitivity, you think attenuaters may help?

 

[Cool Jazz]

Using a DVM to look for impedance and trying to do a resistance check is all wrong. However, the DVM can be used to see if both legs are driven or if something has gone wrong. Just put it to AC and compare while playing something from ground to each driven pins, one at a time. So for instance, pin 1 to 3. And then 1 to 2. You should see a small voltage in each case. If nothing on one of the pairs, then it's not being driven.

Another option is to use a pair of high impedance headphones and clip lead on and do the same pin to pin connection, listening for audio out of each, 1 to 3 and then 1 to 2. When doing that, DO NOT confuse balanced with stereo and try to run both sides of a stereo set of phones from the BALANCED signal. Three connections on both sides and it's easy to confuse for a minute.

CJ

 

[odessamarin]

@Cool Jazz

thank you, will do and report back. And I assume signal 1-2 and 1-3 should by 180 degree out of phase? right?
and between pin 2-3 i should have twice voltage full signal.. correct?
(i have oscilloscope)

 

[Cool Jazz]

Correct. To use a scope to simultaneously see both legs, you'll need to use two traces. Set one trace mid way on the upper side and the other trace half way down the bottom half the scope and you should see that as one side goes up, the other side goes down. That's the voltage doubling via simple phase being opposite.

Use care to not ground an active driven output. So do not clip the ground to the "other" hot lead.

CJ

 

[odessamarin]

Correct. To use a scope to simultaneously see both legs, you'll need to use two traces. Set one trace mid way on the upper side and the other trace half way down the bottom half the scope and you should see that as one side goes up, the other side goes down. That's the voltage doubling via simple phase being opposite.

Use care to not ground an active driven output. So do not clip the ground to the "other" hot lead.

CJ

Only one channel simple scope here (
but will measure just positive impulse (p-pulse) and see how its inverted 1-2 vs 1-3
and with multimeter will try to confirm 1-2 (2V), 1-3 (2V), 2-3 (4V) by measure AC just 1kHz 0dB sinus signal from test CD.

.

 

[johnjen]

@johnjen

sorry.. typo. right i measured resistance between negative and ground. So Pin 1 and 3. corrected in my post.
I know some shrting case/cable ground to cold (-) signal in balanced out. And I know it is no not Pro approach, where signal (-) and (+) is separated form shield ground.
therefore want to check it. And to me yggy do use this scheme, in my static measurment they are shorted pin 1 and 3.

this is my worry.. yggy somehow fall in second scenario (
or it use some "magic" that non of my fully balanced DAC use.

.. and i really wish i am wrong

I have an idea to test.. if this issue i have could be that my amp dont like shield shorted with negative signal, I will disconnect pin 3 in one of the XLR connector. In this case at least my amp circuity will be not be affected. What you think? worse to try?
I heard this trick to short ground and negative pin suggested sometimes for non professional segment of balanced realization. May be here is way around, in my case my amp may suffer from this.
Really don't understand why i have this issue with XLR balanced. Never ever had before.. always was straight forward without problem. Always better sound by balanced interface. Until now (

Again using a dvm to measure output Z or Ω is not going to give you meaningful results.
And if pin #1 and #3 were actually a dead short, then running in balanced mode would result in terrible SQ.
In effect you are using the wrong tool for this investigation.

And some balanced circuits don't like to have either pin# 2 or 3 shorted to ground, at all.
And it doesn't matter if it's the input or the output, forcing either + or — to ground can result in rather poor SQ.
And the JggyB is one such device.
Have you tried to use the unbalanced outputs from the JggyB into your Bryston amp's unbalanced inputs?
This will cut the output voltage in half to both the dac and amp.
It may not be ideal, but as a test to see if this helps to match these 2 units together, then it will give you a better idea if this combination of dac and amp can work 'well' together.

JJ

 

[odessamarin]

@johnjen, @Cool Jazz, @michkhol

I want to thank you all for help me to understand better what i did wrong.
I did measurement as planned and there is no issue with yaggy.
I updated my previews post to not confuse others with wrong measurement results.

1. I measured with oscilloscope positive impulse (p-pulse) and it is inverted 1-2 vs 1-3 as expected in all tested DACs (Yggy, Bryston BDA1, Chugo TT and Gustard X20)
2. Multimeter AC measurement 1kHz 0dB sinus signal from test CD also the same in all DACs: pin 1-2 (~2V), pin 1-3 (~2V), 2-3 (~4V).
3. As noted I was wrong to measure resistance the way I did. Actually all tested DACs give different reading, and there is no sense doing this.

Apparently yggy have no problem and behave as it should from XLR output.
I guess my problem just cmpatibility between Yaggy and Bryston with balanced interconnects. Maybe Bryston too sensitive in some way..
When I connect them with RCA, all sounds much better and full. Last thing to try is attenuate XLR path. I am waiting -10dB XLR in line attenuators.
If not help, will get a pair of Chord Chorus RCA interconnects (i have their XLR and love them..) and just enjoy.
As a long perspective will try to get Ragnarok, should be no compatibility issues with yggy there i geuss!

Regarding sound impression, after my "measurement adventure", I connected my DACs one by one to my beloved Mad Ear+ valvolar headphone amp.
From this amp and HD800s I can go LOUD.. sure somebody know what i mean There is so much drive and punch and resolution spectral and dimensional.. very very nice.
Then I play few tracks with high resolution complex scene and soundstage.. many echos and reverberations... will describe better later.
And in this test YGGY was the best!
Only other DAC that was able to do similar to YGGY was Chord Hugo TT repsect also there.
Bryston and Gustard dont did well in this test. Was intresting, because with Bryston SS amp they perform very good with its own character but stayed behind in this "analogic" test.