The New iRiver/Astell & Kern AK100: A High-End DAP

[frenchbat]

As for first hand experience, FrenchBat & I, together, did listen to the AK100 (and I've tried it 3 times in 3 separate occasions). Using my FitEar TG!334 I could hear a difference between my DX100 & the AK100 (which I've previously shared earlier in this thread - feel free to search) but I'm not advanced enough in this field to discern if the difference I heard was due to the difference in DAC, amp or output impedance.

More importantly, the SQ gets a nice boost when using an amp with a low output impedance. As Anakchan and myself realized when trying the AK100, respectively with his MKIII and my Pico Slim.

 

[lee730]

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More importantly, the SQ gets a nice boost when using an amp with a low output impedance. As Anakchan and myself realized when trying the AK100, respectively with his MKIII and my Pico Slim.

That's what makes it all the more comical. It's like they shot themselves in the left and right foot by not adding a line out . You'd think that would be included on a device that you are forced to use as more of a transport . You'll have to double amp instead.

 

[lee730]

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Hey, fool, you quoted the wrong person!!! I get the point, and i AGREE!!! LOL!!! I'm sending you some COFFEE!!!

Hey! lol I didn't point the comment at you but was rather agreeing and replying back to you to try to explain it (not at you though). .

 

[Achmedisdead]

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 The reason for low impedance IEMs is in part due to Sensitivity/portability. They go hand in hand. If you have an IEM that with super high impedance it won't work with most portable DAPs because they won't supply enough power to properly drive them.

 
Then why not make them with 24 or 32 ohm sensitivity? That's not super high, but it would still allow them to be powered by any portable player easily.

 

[lee730]

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If you are referring to using these IEMs with the AK100s 22 ohms you'll need the impedance of these IEMs to at least be 180 ohms . Otherwise they already do that .

 

[Achmedisdead]

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If you are referring to using these IEMs with the AK100s 22 ohms you'll need the impedance of these IEMs to at least be 180 ohms . Otherwise they already do that .

Nope, I wouldn't even consider the AK100. Assuming I had the money for one of the "high end" players, I think the only one I'd really consider would be the DX100. It's all irrelevant though, because I live under the poverty line....lol.

 

[aqtaket]

Has anyone tried AK100+ "specially tuned" FitEar F111 combo yet?

 

[lee730]

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Nope, I wouldn't even consider the AK100. Assuming I had the money for one of the "high end" players, I think the only one I'd really consider would be the DX100. It's all irrelevant though, because I live under the poverty line....lol.

 
Well I'm not exactly rich myself but audio is one of my most loved hobbies .

 

[Saraugie]

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I'll try one last time lol. With impedances over 1 ohm on a source (the DAP for example) it will negatively impact a sensitive IEM (much more noticeable on BA in comparison to dynamics but there is still a difference even on dynamics). The results are random depending on the IEM itself. Such as the actual ohm rating of the IEM, etc. The results can be heard as rolled off bass, boosted and bloated bass, rolled off treble, boosted and spiked treble, etc. That is the reason for using a source with less than 1 ohm with sensitive IEMs and sensitive headphones. The amp you are using it with is not suppose to be altering the frequency response of the IEM & most definitely not on such magnitude. Altering the frequency response means you are changing the intended sound signature that the manufacturer tuned the IEMs to have.

Even I understand now and Lee has been telling me for months.

 

[Clemmaster]

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I think that he is trying to argue that the problem isn't the player, but that a manufacturer would make a low impedance iem. That there are two possible solutions, either:
 
1. Lower output impedance on the amp
2. Higher input impedance on the iem
 
His inquiry is why 1 is what we demand, while we let headphones makers produce low impedance iems without questioning that.

 
I'm not arguing anything, actually. I'm just pointing at - what I find - unfair and hasty judgments regarding the AK100. 
People tend to say this player is flawed (= piece of c**p) because it has a high output impedance. 
If one takes it the opposite direction, one can say BA iems are flawed because they have an uneven impedance across the spectrum.
 
The link lee730 posted (which, by the way, is quite informative! thx for that) shows that the player may not be a good match for BA iems, that's not unexpected. That doesn't make it a flawed DAP for all that.
You wouldn't call a Stax headphone flawed because it does not work with regular headphone amps. The same applies here: the AK100 was - apparently - designed for dynamic earphones/headphones users.
That's a choice they made. It might be a bad one for some, but one should not disqualify a product because it does not meet one's requirements. 
 
Note: the recommended headphones are not particularly high impedance ones either, they all operate < 80 Ohm. 

 

[turokrocks]

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pass the popcorn please

Butter/Apple Carmel or plain?...Anyone also is welcomed.

 

[reginalb]

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You don't seem to mind buying IEM with their heavily varying impedance. From the 2, I don't know which one exhibit the biggest flaw (balanced-armature IEM or AK100)?

 
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Did you not read the comment I made about that?
You say that a 20 Ohm headphone amp is totally unacceptable yet yoy don't seem to bother much about what one could call a totally flawed impedance response for the BA iems. If you are totally objective you would buy neither the AK nor BA iems...

 
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I don't see it as a straw man argument. He didn't ask that question. If he did he would have asked why are most IEMs sensitive? As you had said it is because most portable players will not be able to power power hungry/wasteful IEMs. What I gathered from his question is how does impedance affect IEMs and where is the proof.

 
Yeah, he did. Twice.
 
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I'm not arguing anything, actually. I'm just pointing at - what I find - unfair and hasty judgments regarding the AK100. 
People tend to say this player is flawed (= piece of c**p) because it has a high output impedance. 
If one takes it the opposite direction, one can say BA iems are flawed because they have an uneven impedance across the spectrum.
 
The link lee730 posted (which, by the way, is quite informative! thx for that) shows that the player may not be a good match for BA iems, that's not unexpected. That doesn't make it a flawed DAP for all that.
You wouldn't call a Stax headphone flawed because it does not work with regular headphone amps. The same applies here: the AK100 was - apparently - designed for dynamic earphones/headphones users.
That's a choice they made. It might be a bad one for some, but one should not disqualify a product because it does not meet one's requirements. 
 
Note: the recommended headphones are not particularly high impedance ones either, they all operate < 80 Ohm. 

 
 
 
Right, but iRiver has displayed that they don't seem to understand that the impedance is a problem for iems. They originally marketed the thing for IEMs, as has been pointed out. It was only after prodding that they changed their story about what headphones to use with it. And I would agree with you if the thing wasn't clearly designed with portability in mind. Look at how small it is. Yet, it is only going to work with big headphones. Kind of defeats the purpose. 
 
And the 80 ohm recommendation really isn't high enough still. The point isn't just that it's high impedance, it's that it's supposed to be portable and it's high impedance.

 

[lee730]

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No he did not ask that question. Quoting you:
 
"To be fair, this is still a straw man argument you're making.
 
The actual answer to his question is that (most) IEMs are sensitive so that they can be driven by the amps in most portable players. Some IEMs, again just to be fair, have a high impedance. 
HifiMan HM-601 + AKG Q701 + Renee Olstead = Musical bliss"
 
 
Pretty much what he asked is why aren't BA with their varying impedance's seen as flawed if this DAP is considered flawed. I'm wondering is English is your native tongue as well as his? Either way his logic still doesn't make sense because most good DAPs out there have less than 1 ohm output impedance. The same applies to portable amps that are made to drive sensitive IEMs and headphones. This has been the norm for quite some time. Still while BA are affected the most, Sensitive Dynamic IEMs and headphones are also affected by high output impedance sources. This would explain my issues I had with all my IEMs and my Denon 5000s on my Fiio E9 amp which has less than half the output impedance of the AK100 mind you.

 

[ExpatinJapan]

Epic thread is epic!

 

[Achmedisdead]

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Epic thread is epic!