[thrice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canman The SDS wasn't sounding very good at the meet. I think there was something wrong with the amp because it exhibited some distortion, frequency rolloff, and compression. I have heard many of Mikhail's designs before and I am big fan of his amps, but this one was not sounding good.

Yeah, it was interesting to hear the SDS paired against Ray's Stealth. Hirsch and Ray had a A/B session with Ray's switchbox (which inspired me to build my own switchbox yesterday!). I didn't have a lot of time to listen to the two via the switchbox, but when I did, I heard very little difference at all between the SDS and the Stealth.

DustyChalk: I was the one who put the W100s in the SDS early in the meet.

Yeah they did sound good through the SDS and the Wadia.



Quote:

Originally Posted by canman One very interesting experiment was Ray's amp switchbox. This allowed you to switch between amplifiers with a flip of the switch. Differences that I thought I could hear when plugging and unplugging headphones dissapeared with the switch box in place. All of Ray's solid state amps sounded VERY close, even with the R10s. The Stealth and the HR-2 were too close with the HD-600 and similar but noticably different using the R-10.

Ray has an interesting philosophy regarding his amps. His theory is that if an amp builder is true to the source all the amps should sound alike (or at least very very close). Before the meet started Ray set up his amps and had the switchbox going. He paired his SR-71 to his Stealth and had me listen. There was very very little difference between the two. I was surprised at how well the SR-71 held up against its big brother. Ray uses that switchbox to demonstrate the differences/similarities between his and other amps. It's a great way to try out amps. It has definitely opened my ears a lot more. I still have Stevieo's gear and I A/Bed amps for 2 hours yesterday. Having a switchbox really does reveal all the differences between components. I'd say the experience with Ray and his switchbox was the most rewarding and educational part of the meet for me.

Throughout the meet the SR-71 was passed around a lot and I heard a few people commenting on how well it handled various cans. I promised myself that I would only build my own amps in order to help keep this hobby somewhat affordable...I'm going to have to break that promise when I buy one of Ray's amps!

 

[taylor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thrice Having a switchbox really does reveal all the differences between components. I'd say the experience with Ray and his switchbox was the most rewarding and educational part of the meet for me.

I agree with you on this, Rays switchbox convinced me to never buy an expensive amp. There's a big difference between hearing other head-fiers talking about how an expensive amp sounds a lot better, then A/Bing a $250 amp to a $2500 amp and finding very little difference.

 

[tom hankins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor I agree with you on this, Rays switchbox convinced me to never buy an expensive amp. There's a big difference between hearing other head-fiers talking about how an expensive amp sounds a lot better, then A/Bing a $250 amp to a $2500 amp and finding very little difference.

Which 250.00 amp was sounding very close to which 2500.00 amp? And what were the differences?

 

[john_jcb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor I agree with you on this, Rays switchbox convinced me to never buy an expensive amp. There's a big difference between hearing other head-fiers talking about how an expensive amp sounds a lot better, then A/Bing a $250 amp to a $2500 amp and finding very little difference.

Maybe the SR-71 and the Stealth?

I have said for a long time that the differences between most amps are subtle and require careful listening. As you become more and more familiar with certain pieces of music I begin to hear the subtle differences where I originally thought there were none. This is why a good review or audition takes some time. I also hear the differences more clearly when I have a nice quiet room and time to concentrate.

After hearing different amps with the switchbox it makes one a bit skeptical one you hear that one amp blows another away.

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylor I agree with you on this, Rays switchbox convinced me to never buy an expensive amp. There's a big difference between hearing other head-fiers talking about how an expensive amp sounds a lot better, then A/Bing a $250 amp to a $2500 amp and finding very little difference.

Ray's switchbox convinced me that it's a bad way to listen for differences between equipment. The problem is that it's not a neutral interface. There's a very clear subtractive effect on the sound when the switchbox is put in line. It's possible to argue that this effect is equal between components, and shouldn't matter, but what if the effect isn't additive? If the box imposes a limit of resolution on fine detail, then the piece of gear that has the higher resolution is going to suffer a larger performance decrement.

To try and draw an analogy, judging amps with the switchbox was like trying to judge race horses when both of them are being held back by the jockeys during practice trials. No way to know which horse is faster, unless you let them run full out. Basing a judgement on the practice trial is a pure guess.

I could sometimes hear small differences between the Supra (non-SDS) and the Stealth, but couldn't tell which amp was which. So, are these the same sound, or would one or the other sound better if set up optimally. In all honesty, since most of my listening to the Stealth was done through the switchbox, I don't feel as though I've heard the amp yet. It's good, but neither it nor the Supra were imaging particularly well, although both had good tonality and dynamic range. Imaging improved without the switchbox, as did fine detail, but I still felt that the interconnects were imposing a limit on resolution, particularly since they were running through splitters. MIT Terminator 3 is decent, but not great, and not something I would normally use to judge high-end gear.

The switchbox did reveal distortion at high levels in the SDS, which turned out to be a failing Solen capacitor going to the gain tube, so it did turn up something. However, the Supra had no issues, and was able to track as loud as the Stealth without distortion. Would the Supra and Stealth sound the same if both were set up optimally? I know that the Supra normally sounds much better, but cannot answer for the Stealth. This is not a knock on the Stealth. I was very impressed by that amp, and would love to spend some time trying to optimize it just to see how good it can be. I don't feel that the switching setup let any of the amps tested in it perform at their best.

 

[thrice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by john_jcb After hearing different amps with the switchbox it makes one a bit skeptical one you hear that one amp blows another away.

Exactly! It was defintely small shades of grey between the SR-71 and the Stealth that Ray had me A/B before the meet. (when it was quiet and I could listen and concentrate). Now I know I'm not the most experienced audiophile out there, but the last 48 hours of listening have been very revealing to me. I'm already working on building another PPA that's identical to mine so I can roll opamps and A/B them.

taylor: Testify!!!!!

 

[gaboo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch Ray's switchbox convinced me that it's a bad way to listen for differences between equipment. The problem is that it's not a neutral interface. There's a very clear subtractive effect on the sound when the switchbox is put in line. It's possible to argue that this effect is equal between components, and shouldn't matter, but what if the effect isn't additive? If the box imposes a limit of resolution on fine detail, then the piece of gear that has the higher resolution is going to suffer a larger performance decrement.

I've not listed to the switchbox, mainly because there were so many people waiting in line for it. The IC going into the box was a simple twisted pair of rather mundane looking wire.
Ray assured us that it was "military grade stuff", but I'm not sure that military equals hi-fi.

I suspect however that the main issue was the impedance mismatch between switchbox wires and headphone IC. This may have cause reflections in the signal at higher freqs. I'm sure other people here (Kevin Gilmore ?) can speak on that issue more expertly than I can. IMHO an A/B switchbox should use the same wire as the one going to the headphones (or compensate for it with proper termination).

On the A/B issue itself, I'm sure Hirsh knows that it wasn't scientifically valid anyway. You'd basically get to hear each sample once. There was no way to hear the exact same sample with the other amp. Unfortunately I see no simple way of doing a true ABX test without the help of a computer sw (e.g. foobar2k has an ABX module), and many people here shudder at the very thought of using a computer for audio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch The switchbox did reveal distortion at high levels in the SDS, which turned out to be a failing Solen capacitor going to the gain tube, so it did turn up something. However, the Supra had no issues, and was able to track as loud as the Stealth without distortion. Would the Supra and Stealth sound the same if both were set up optimally? I know that the Supra normally sounds much better, but cannot answer for the Stealth. This is not a knock on the Stealth. I was very impressed by that amp, and would love to spend some time trying to optimize it just to see how good it can be. I don't feel that the switching setup let any of the amps tested in it perform at their best.

Lucky me, I got to listen to the SDS in the first hour of the meet. I didn't notice any distortion, and the combo R10/SDS was way more detailed to my ears than PPX3 (black) + HD600 on the same CD (opera). But I was too bewildered to switch phones and AB at that early stage... I also turned out that I listen at far lower loudness level than most people at the meet.

 

[Hirsch]

Now that I’ve gotten my switchbox rant out of the way, I can try to post some sonic impressions. As with almost any meet, I missed most of the things I really wanted to hear going in. By the time I found a moment, everything was already being packed up.

Igor Kuznetsoff of K-Works came, bringing some great cables and other devices he’s put together. He’s extremely innovative, and comes up with some very interesting devices. Tired of stiff interconnects? How about one that’s so flexible you can tie it in a knot like a piece of braided rope? Actually, it’s three separate braids. One is signal and one is ground. The third can be used for another conductor in a balanced configuration, or cover Igor’s ERS material to produce a partial shielding effect. It’s also a gorgeous blue. WAF on this one is over the top. He also brought a more expensive cable, the Phantom that has an extremely wide sound stage, even with headphones. I need to hear more of this. I already use his Empowered power cords in several systems, but he’s got a more advanced cord, the Dynamo that may reduce the noise floor even more. I’ve got to try one of these in a quieter environment. Another interesting cable was his digital cable. This cable actually produced the most audible difference I’ve ever heard out of a digital cable (Dave1 is laughing hysterically at this, incidentally. I wish we had been able to demo this when he was still at the meet). Other devices included a novel cable lifter, and some very interesting isolation feet.

Rays amps sounded great to me. I still think the SR-71 is as good as it gets in portables. I didn’t get a lot of time with the XP-7 and HR-2 this time around, but both were sounding very good. The Stealth was impressive. As I said above, I’d like to spend some time seeing just how good it can be. I just happened to have some spare tubes with me, and we tried a bit of tuberolling on the Stealth. Ray has optimized the amp for the EH 6SN7GT, which he feels is the best 6SN7 made today. I completely agree. However, there were some pretty good tubes made a few years ago, and I wanted to hear how the Stealth responded. So, I slipped a pair of Tung Sol round plates into the output sockets, and a Telefunken ECC801S into the gain position. Did tuberolling matter? The smile on Ray’s face and his “Omigod, listen to that voice!” indicated that he heard the same thing I did. The Tung Sol may have the best midrange in any 6SN7, and the Stealth was able to let it through. The output gain was reduced by the Tung Sol, and even more by the Telefunken, but it was only a step or two on the attenuator. What you get for the loss in gain is a smoother, more detailed midrange that draws you right in.

Canman’s electrostatic setup was impressive as always. KGSS, Meridian G08, and Omega II. The Omega II was actually awake during the earlier part of the meet this time around

We also tried the HE60 in this setup, and IMO it held its own, particularly out of the KGSS. However, the HEV70 was sounding very good also. This amp tends to get overlooked, even by me and I own one. However, it’s a very nice amp in its own right. The weak spot is the wall wart. I was going to try upgrading it to a regulated power supply, but in my own system the incoming voltage is highly regulated, so it’s never gotten to the top of my list of things to do. A steady power supply improves performance, sometimes by a lot.

Headamp had its lineup present. If one thing knocked me for a loop at this meet, it was the Gilmore Balanced Reference. I liked it the last time I heard it, but it sounded even better to me this time. Smoother and more detailed. I complemented Justin on this, and he told me that the amp at the meet had been built with Blackgate capacitors. These caps do raise the performance of the amp. I’d rate this as the best solid state dynamic headphone amp I’ve heard. The Blue Hawaii sounded great with both SR-404 and Baby O. The BH has a different presentation than the KGSS that seemed more pronounced than the last time I heard both. I still can’t say which one I prefer. The SR-404 can present a bit more bass and dynamics, I think, but the Baby O has the edge in finesse and the high end.

I had several of my setups hooked up using the Bogdan Spirit Series interconnects. I've had the BSSR for a while now, but Bogdan has been working with different conductors. His Gold/Silver combination IMO is a big step up from the BSSR. I had several demo cables there, and will be posting a review on these. The short version is that the Gold/Silver Spirit adds a bit of depth to the midrange that isn't present on the Silver Spirit. This gives it a fuller sound without losing any of the detail. I'll save the long version for my review.

I had a Rotel CD player, modded Melos SHA-1 which eventually got set up with the HP-2. This sounded better than it had any right to, until I lost a channel on the HP-2. Luckily, it turned out to be a broken lead to the driver. Justin had the right hex wrench to open the headphone up, and used thrice’s soldering station to repair the headphone on the spot. Phew! Thanks, Justin!

There was way too much that I didn’t get to hear. That’s the way it usually is, though. Thanks again to thrice for hosting a great meet!

 

[Ray Samuels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hirsch Ray's switchbox convinced me that it's a bad way to listen for differences between equipment. The problem is that it's not a neutral interface. There's a very clear subtractive effect on the sound when the switchbox is put in line. It's possible to argue that this effect is equal between components, and shouldn't matter, but what if the effect isn't additive? If the box imposes a limit of resolution on fine detail, then the piece of gear that has the higher resolution is going to suffer a larger performance decrement. To try and draw an analogy, judging amps with the switchbox was like trying to judge race horses when both of them are being held back by the jockies during practice trials. No way to know which horse is faster, unless you let them run full out. Basing a judgement on the practice trial is a pure guess. I could sometimes hear small differences between the Supra (non-SDS) and the Stealth, but couldn't tell which amp was which. So, are these the same sound, or would one or the other sound better if set up optimally. In all honesty, since most of my listening to the Stealth was done through the switchbox, I don't feel as though I've heard the amp yet. It's good, but neither it nor the Supra were imaging particularly well, although both had good tonality and dynamic range. Imaging improved without the switchbox, as did fine detail, but I still felt that the interconnects were imposing a limit on resolution, particularly since they were running through splitters. MIT Terminator 3 is decent, but not great, and not something I would normally use to judge high-end gear. The switchbox did reveal distortion at high levels in the SDS, which turned out to be a failing Solen capacitor going to the gain tube, so it did turn up something. However, the Supra had no issues, and was able to track as loud as the Stealth without distortion. Would the Supra and Stealth sound the same if both were set up optimally? I know that the Supra normally sounds much better, but cannot answer for the Stealth. This is not a knock on the Stealth. I was very impressed by that amp, and would love to spend some time trying to optimize it just to see how good it can be. I don't feel that the switching setup let any of the amps tested in it perform at their best.

Hirsch...
I do not seem to agree with you regarding the switch box degrading the resulution of the source which is one of the best, Meridian 24 bit, The quality of the cable used is the finest ever made with the best specs money can buy, this cable is sold by inches & not by feet, it goes into outer space & passes the best EMI & corrosion, the outer skin can resist the highest heat you can ever imagine, as to connectors, they are of high quality gold plated so is the high quality switch. these cables are burned-in for thousand of hours & they are very true to the signal passing through them, I know that I use them daily in my work. The test was fair to both amps, I consider the MIT terminator 3 to be very nutral interconnectors which we used three sets, equal lengths through the same high quality gold finished splitter, with the same power cords in both amps, the test was done first using the HD600, then R-10, as to the out come, there are many headfiers could fill you up on the result. The test was very fair.
Ray Samuels

 

[gaboo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canman Using an HP-2, I could differentiate the Gilmore Lite and the Stealth every time, but honestly they don't sound that different. The Gilmore Lite had some compression/fuzziness in the high end compared to the Stealth but it is one tenth the price.

I listened to the PIMETA, PPA (w/diamond buffer?), Gilmore Lite and SR-71 with the Grado PS-1 straight out of the 3950 in the kitchen (btw, was it modded?) on Savatage's Edge of Thorns. I noticed significant bass improvement on the amps in the order above. On midrange the PIMETA and PPA had some "veil" compared to the other two. No difference between Lite and SR-71 on mirange, but the Lite had a bit of harshness on transient highs (cymbals in particular).

Out of these four, it looks like the SR-71 wins on current loving cans. Since I found that Lite had a bit of harshness compared to Ray's "lesser" amp, I'm not surpized that Canman came to the same conclusion comparing the Lite with the more expensive Emmeline stuff.

To cover my ass, I'll point out that the PPA was completed only a few hours before the meet started, and that the PIMETA & Lite were powerred from the mains, while SR-1 and the PPA were running on batteries.

 

[thrice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaboo I listened to the PIMETA, PPA (w/diamond buffer?), Gilmore Lite and SR-71 with the Grado PS-1 straight out of the 3950 in the kitchen (btw, was it modded?) on Savatage's Edge of Thorns. I noticed significant bass improvement on the amps in the order above. On midrange the PIMETA and PPA had some "veil" compared to the other two. No difference between Lite and SR-71 on mirange, but the Lite had a bit of harshness on transient highs (cymbals in particular). Out of these four, it looks like the SR-71 wins on current loving cans. Since I found that Lite had a bit of harshness compared to Ray's "lesser" amp, I'm not surpized that Canman came to the same conclusion comparing the Lite with the more expensive Emmeline stuff. To cover my ass, I'll point out that the PPA was completed only a few hours before the meet started, and that the PIMETA & Lite were powerred from the mains, while SR-1 and the PPA were running on batteries.

Actually the PIMETA was powered from a STEPS and it was the PIMETA and the STEPS that were finished at 2:00am. The PPA is fully burned in. Ray took a listen to the PPA and had the same conclusion. He mentioned that the tonality was right on, but the seperation was lacking a bit. I also got to A/B that with his amps. He gave me some advice about how to imporve the PPA. On Sunday I added a DACT CT2 to the PPA and it is sounding much better. I then adjusted the bias voltage on the Larocco Diamond buffer and that also improved things. The PPA was using the OPA627 opamps, I'm going to roll them with some other opamps soon, the AD8610s and a few others. I've got another PPA in the works so I can do a more direct comparison between opamps.

 

[Hirsch]

 

[thrice]

 

[Dusty Chalk]

I, too, did not have faith in the switchbox test for a variety of reasons. Too many connections, for one (in addition to the interconnects, there were also adapters to get from the quarter-inch headphone jacks to the interconnects, for example). There's just too many places where that can go wrong.

Ray, if you don't believe me, try this test for yourself: set up two of your amps, one with the switchbox in place, and one without, with two pairs of the exact same headphones and the exact same source (no splitting on the source). Then compare them by switching headphones. I'm sure you'll hear a difference even on your own amps.

BTW, I liked your Stealth very much with the Sennheisers.

 

[bhd812]

lol ray got a haircut...

and now back to the impressions