[JLoud]

Wait a second, I thought my hearing is digital

And all bits are the same. So maybe we just need to reduce jitter and we'll be all set.

 

[littlej0e]

Indeed. Brains are complex. I don’t believe that oscilloscopes can capture all that is involved in the enjoyment of sound equation.

My thoughts when people say “show me the measurements” is the brain is far more sensitive than any test rig. And I listen with My ears and My brain, Their test rig doesn’t matter. My Schiit Modius tests far better than my WA33, but you can guess which one I think sounds better. To each his own I guess.

Let me know when the sound science forum comes up with a way to measure what happens after sound enters your ear and gets “translated” by your brain...
https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/how-do-we-hear

I agree 100%. Truth is, I've been asking myself "W...T...F..." ever since I did my cable demos. I noticed subtle-to-clear differences between some of the cables I tried. Others, not so much. I even had the dealer blindly switch back and fourth using the same track at the same volume and I could easily hear differences. Specifically, with warmth, clarity, and brightness. It was plain as day with some. I also noticed most differences were more prevalent and discernable at higher volumes.

The only real scientific measurement I could hang my hat on was EMI, but I'm not sure that is particularly relevant in most instances (surely not enough to cause drastic differences in sound?!?). Then I thought it could be differences in impedance causing passive changes in volume, but I mostly ruled that out with a noise dosimeter app on my phone. All of this this pains me greatly as my engineering brain can't come to terms with what I hear. So much so that I scheduled a second cable demo with a different dealer using a different testing methodology on a different system, but largely reached the same results between the "final 3" cable manufacturers I tried. Despite the fact I recently dropped an embarrassing amount of money on cables (after my demos), I would love for all of this to be neatly explained by placebo or confirmation bias. At least then I would have a clear scientific explanation for what I hear instead of "voodoo, hoodoo, fairy dust, and magic."

If you can't tell, these findings still bug the crap out of me...

 

[Gadget67]

I agree wholeheartedly. Truth is, I've been asking myself "W...T...F..." ever since I did my cable demos. I noticed subtle-to-clear differences between some of the cables I tried. Others, not so much. I even had the dealer blindly switch back and fourth using the same track at the same volume and I could easily hear differences in warmth, clarity, and brightness. It was plain as day with some. I also noticed most differences were more prevalent and discernable at higher volumes.

The only real scientific measurement I could hang my hat on was EMI, but I'm not sure that is particularly relevant in most instances (surely not enough to cause drastic differences in sound?!?). Then I thought it could be differences in impedance causing passive changes in volume, but I mostly ruled that out with a dosimeter app on my phone.

All of this this pains me greatly as my engineering brain can't come to terms with what I hear. So much so that I scheduled a second cable demo with a different dealer using a different testing methodology on a different system, but largely reached the same results between the "final 3" cable manufacturers I tried. Despite the fact I recently dropped an embarrassing amount of money on cables (after my demos), I would love for all of this to be neatly explained by placebo or confirmation bias. At least then I would have a clear scientific explanation for what I hear instead of "voodoo, hoodoo, fairy dust, and magic."

If you can't tell, my findings still bug the crap out of me...

I have yet to receive my 1266 headphones, but after watching videos and reading comments about how important positioning of the ear ups is and how important fit is I realize what a huge role my ears and hearing play into what I actually “hear” versus what measurable sounds are being emitted by the headphones. Cables have always puzzled me because all of them are essentially pure copper or silver wire (or a combination) using similar connectors and manufacturing methods. My Lazuli reference sounds better to me than other cable made with literally the same materials and I obviously wish I knew why. Ear cup materials play a role as does open or closed, beryllium or electrostatic, clamping pressure, etc. Does one ear hear differently than the other? Does my brain somehow account for those differences? Fascinating, as Dr. Spock would say...

 

[zenlisten]

Ever since I got the Abyss AB-1266 TC headphones last Christmas my question was whether my TT2 is enough to drive them. However, in this small country I haven't had an easy chance to try them with a recommended amp (see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...ressions-thread.666765/page-882#post-16088128). Well I didn't until yesterday when @mammal wrote that our common dealer now carries the Formula S amps. I asked them and they were so nice that they have lended out one to me.

After hooking it up it was immediately clear that this is another level. Now I can finally answer the question: Although the TT2 can drive the AB-1266 TCs fine, a proper amp needs to be added to unlock the full potential of these headphones. It opens up, extends, the bass becomes very powerful, and everything gets its proper "weight". It's like a full upgrade. I am not great at describing the changes but fortunately some people already did it regarding another amp, the TToby:

...After hooking the TC up to the TToby's speaker taps, I nervously turned up the volume from zero very slowly to my normal listening level. As I did so, I could not believe what was happening. The soundstage just seemed to keep expanding in every single direction but especially in depth and height. The imaging and the placement of the instruments also improved at the same rate - getting bigger in sound but also more defined in their respective positions. The improvement of the bass frequencies was startling. It seemed to occupy a bigger portion of the soundstage than before but it stayed locked firmly in its position and did not at all interfere with other instruments and frequencies. As my wife noted, it was as if the singer and the all the band members got put in their places in a three-dimensional space. And I wasn't even close to having the volume at my normal listening level. I was already hearing this huge improvement at around 75dB...

And:

...I have to agree with Orlok’s impression that TToby turns the TCs into a whole new headphone. I could tell that within seconds of putting them on. The first thing I noticed is that the soundstage has grown immensely in every direction. Not just in height, but also in depth. Sounds pop from an infinitely deep background and disappear just as quickly. This depth reminds me very much of my old Utopia, but with a soundstage height to match the likes of an HE1000. Secondary to this, imaging is stepped up to a level I really didn’t think would be possible with headphones. If I can quantify this arbitrarily, I think the staging properties of the TC are improved 30-40% compared to TT2. I now see the “clear as day” improvement that speaker amp users describe. Not to sound cliche, but I can almost feel the absolute control TToby has over the TC drivers. And, like Orlok described, the stage grows even larger as the volume increases. This does make it easier to justify turning the volume up, which is something to be careful of.

Instrument separation is also improved substantially. As a big electronica listener, I find this especially noticeable with complex music (Max Cooper, Felix Laband, a lot of John Hopkins’ the work), though my limited jazz library also sounds like the individual players are spaced out into a realistic stage. For individual frequency ranges, I find the midrange to be the most improved. Male vocals and guitars are more forward and have a a heavier tone weight to them. You can notice more nuances in how string instruments vibrate...

Yep, it's definitely worth getting a proper amp for the AB-1266 TCs.

On the flip side some transparency is lost but this is something I can live with. It can be probably mitigated somewhat with adding the Powerman, and upgrading the TT2 to the DAVE.

 

[ra990]

Regarding measurements, these particular headphones will be almost impossible to measure accurately because
1) you don't want a seal, you want a loose fit
2) position of ear pads and angle of frame greatly impact frequency response
3) it's very easy to give too much space, which leads to distortion

I can't wait till those bozos at ASR get a pair of these to measure and the shitstorm that will create! My popcorn is ready and my Abyss are on my head.

 

[littlej0e]

I have yet to receive my 1266 headphones, but after watching videos and reading comments about how important positioning of the ear ups is and how important fit is I realize what a huge role my ears and hearing play into what I actually “hear” versus what measurable sounds are being emitted by the headphones. Cables have always puzzled me because all of them are essentially pure copper or silver wire (or a combination) using similar connectors and manufacturing methods. My Lazuli reference sounds better to me than other cable made with literally the same materials and I obviously wish I knew why. Ear cup materials play a role as does open or closed, beryllium or electrostatic, clamping pressure, etc. Does one ear hear differently than the other? Does my brain somehow account for those differences? Fascinating, as Dr. Spock would say...

Regarding measurements, these particular headphones will be almost impossible to measure accurately because
1) you don't want a seal, you want a loose fit
2) position of ear pads and angle of frame greatly impact frequency response
3) it's very easy to give too much space, which leads to distortion

I can't wait till those bozos at ASR get a pair of these to measure and the shitstorm that will create! My popcorn is ready and my Abyss are on my head.

Agreed. This topic just stabs the logical portion of my brain with an ice pick and I hate it.

Now that I think of it, the single best argument I can think of for or against audible differences in cables is the same medical condition that drove me to build a ridiculous audio rig in the first place; synesthesia. It is a scientifically documented, yet still somewhat poorly understood medical condition that can cause all sorts of abnormal and unpredictable reactions to a given stimulus, especially audio. Scientifically measuring effects between people with this condition is insanely difficult even with the most advanced MRI studies and medical tech available.

So...the mere existence of synesthesia in human biology means that differences in physiological interpretation of audio between people is not only possible, but has already been scientifically documented as fact. Therefore, despite the fact that humans generally hear within the same audible frequency spectrum, people still can and do interpret those frequencies differently. So the old adage that, "some people are just wired differently" really is true and just because you can't hear something doesn't mean someone else can't or that it can be empirically measured. If Jimmy Hendrix's Purple Haze can somehow make John Q. Synesthesiaguy see the color blue or feel like he is falling, is it really that much of a stretch to believe that some people can hear audible differences between cables?

 

[mammal]

our common dealer now carries the Formula S amps. I asked them and they were so nice that they have lended out one to me.

Neel and his team are the best, so happy to read you managed to get your hands on Formula S. Have you decided to purchase it too? I see you have HMS for your HTT2, so wondering, what would you recommend me first, get Formula S or HMS? I plan to get them both, so the question is now in which order, haha. Thanks!

 

[BPED]

Always loved that movie

But as mentioned in a previous post the other day, it supposed to sound better off of the speaker taps than the headphone out. You're spending $17K for basically an overpriced speaker amp. Make that a vastly over priced speaker amp,

Btw, go to the For Sale forum. You can pick one up for $9k. It's been up for sale for 2 1/2 months.

I love my AIC-10 – which I bought second hand- but I also agree that the full price is really steep. I won’t even try to defend the economic rationality of purchasing a Riviera, it would be like asking whether it’s a good investment to buy a Lamborghini (just to stay with Italian crazy high-end products…). Crucially, unless the Lamborghini, the Riviera is not particularly flashy and I think that diminishes a bit its appeal for customers interested in that segment.

But back to music…

For me the strong point of the AIC-10 is that it is a top notch AND versatile amp. In that respect it has few contenders I think (not arguing it’s the best of all, though).

Recently, the o-ring of my TC snapped, and I used my Utopia with Dana Lazuli for a couple of months until I got the new headband. With the TC I use speakers taps (yes, it is a significant step up from High gain) + ECC82 Mullard. I simply switched to Low gain and replaced the warm Mullard for a sharper tube, to get the sound signature I wanted with the Utopia. In this configuration, I slightly prefer the Riviera over the Dave headphones output (which is in itself a match made in heaven).

This amp can really bring out the best from very different headphones. Of course, one can always play with cables or go for a different tubes amp. There are many ways to get there…

 

[DJJEZ]

Does anyone have an

Ever since I got the Abyss AB-1266 TC headphones last Christmas my question was whether my TT2 is enough to drive them. However, in this small country I haven't had an easy chance to try them with a recommended amp (see https://www.head-fi.org/threads/the...ressions-thread.666765/page-882#post-16088128). Well I didn't until yesterday when @mammal wrote that our common dealer now carries the Formula S amps. I asked them and they were so nice that they have lended out one to me.



After hooking it up it was immediately clear that this is another level. Now I can finally answer the question: Although the TT2 can drive the AB-1266 TCs fine, a proper amp needs to be added to unlock the full potential of these headphones. It opens up, extends, the bass becomes very powerful, and everything gets its proper "weight". It's like a full upgrade. I am not great at describing the changes but fortunately some people already did it regarding another amp, the TToby:



And:


Yep, it's definitely worth getting a proper amp for the AB-1266 TCs.

On the flip side some transparency is lost but this is something I can live with. It can be probably mitigated somewhat with adding the Powerman, and upgrading the TT2 to the DAVE.

im going down the same exact upgrade path as you very soon. thanks for sharing. i take it your keeping the formula S?

 

[zenlisten]

Neel and his team are the best, so happy to read you managed to get your hands on Formula S. Have you decided to purchase it too?

i take it your keeping the formula S?

I am definitely buying a Formula S, and probably a Powerman too.

I see you have HMS for your HTT2, so wondering, what would you recommend me first, get Formula S or HMS? I plan to get them both, so the question is now in which order, haha. Thanks!

I guess this also depends on the music you listen to but generally I guess a proper amp for these headphones is more important.
For less hungry headphones I would rather avoid adding an amp to preserve the transparency of the Chord stack.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I agree 100%. Truth is, I've been asking myself "W...T...F..." ever since I did my cable demos. I noticed subtle-to-clear differences between some of the cables I tried. Others, not so much. I even had the dealer blindly switch back and fourth using the same track at the same volume and I could easily hear differences. Specifically, with warmth, clarity, and brightness. It was plain as day with some. I also noticed most differences were more prevalent and discernable at higher volumes.

The only real scientific measurement I could hang my hat on was EMI, but I'm not sure that is particularly relevant in most instances (surely not enough to cause drastic differences in sound?!?). Then I thought it could be differences in impedance causing passive changes in volume, but I mostly ruled that out with a noise dosimeter app on my phone. All of this this pains me greatly as my engineering brain can't come to terms with what I hear. So much so that I scheduled a second cable demo with a different dealer using a different testing methodology on a different system, but largely reached the same results between the "final 3" cable manufacturers I tried. Despite the fact I recently dropped an embarrassing amount of money on cables (after my demos), I would love for all of this to be neatly explained by placebo or confirmation bias. At least then I would have a clear scientific explanation for what I hear instead of "voodoo, hoodoo, fairy dust, and magic."

If you can't tell, these findings still bug the crap out of me...

Given your comparisons, I'm very curious as to what cables you've decided upon and why. What did you end up getting?

 

[mammal]

Although the TT2 can drive the AB-1266 TCs fine, a proper amp needs to be added to unlock the full potential of these headphones.

One more question, were you using HTT2's front SE or rear XLRs to drive AB-1266?

 

[Stereolab42]

For reference, I placed my order direct on 3/31. On 4/3 I got an update email stating a 3-week wait, so this is almost exactly 3 weeks. While I'm glad I'm getting my headphones much faster than expected, I feel for those who ordered through dealers and are waiting much longer. Direct is the way to go. (But hopefully with the new CNC machines everything will keep speeding up.)

 

[zenlisten]

One more question, were you using HTT2's front SE or rear XLRs to drive AB-1266?

After volume matching them (6dB is the difference) I used the front SE because it's slightly more transparent (which I A/B tested only quickly myself, but I understand it's built like this from a comment by its designer @Rob Watts).

 

[mammal]

the front SE because it's slightly more transparent

Yes, SE is more transparent, but XLR has more power, which I have read owners of AB-1266 appreciate (but you need an adapter).