[SHAMuuu]

Hey, in case anyone was interested, I asked a contact at Ora about access to spare drivers as spare parts (for us DIY and modders).

Unfortunately, the news wasn’t so good (at least not for a while).

Question:
If an Ora owner wants to buy (1) spare pair of GrapheneQ drivers for DIY, will Ora make them available as a spare parts? I know there are a couple of us DIY modders on HeadFi that are extremely interested.​

Answer:
Besides ordering replacement driver/baffle assemblies, it is unlikely that we will make these drivers available to DIYers for the time being. Ora is very focused on getting this technology into products from major consumer electronics brands and, until we have established those relationships, we don’t want to jeopardize those negotiations by making the drivers commercially available, even in small quantities.​

I also asked them some other questions about the drivers (will they be glued, frame questions, etc). If anyone is interested in their responses, lemme know and I will post the entirety of our conversation. I don’t want to clog up the thread with anything off topic, but in a way it is kinda on topic because many of us are interested in the Q drivers because they may be game changers...

I will definitely be posting photos of the Q drivers and internals once I have them in my hands.

Since you're in touch with them, maybe you can get some info on the magnet system. I've been keeping an eye on them and their R&D, and some things look awesome like the membrane, and voice coil. But, the venting seems to have that asymmetrical design from the prototype anyway, and i hope they fix it before release or that would be disappointing since it looks so promising, and its not even a complicated fix. Possibly a few $$ more to tweak the housing, but i would imagine it would be more favorable even results.

Am i the deluded one here? lol I am sure others see this.

 

[RenZixx]

Refering to this?

Right is ora graphene Q

Thanks buddy! Been searching for that since month's!

 

[iFi audio]

Am i the deluded one here? lol I am sure others see this.

We do.

 

[Slater]

Since you're in touch with them, maybe you can get some info on the magnet system. I've been keeping an eye on them and their R&D, and some things look awesome like the membrane, and voice coil. But, the venting seems to have that asymmetrical design from the prototype anyway, and i hope they fix it before release or that would be disappointing since it looks so promising, and its not even a complicated fix. Possibly a few $$ more to tweak the housing, but i would imagine it would be more favorable even results.



Am i the deluded one here? lol I am sure others see this.

Yeah, I asked them about that.

Here’s the full conversation (they told me it was OK to post the full conversation). Hopefully it will be useful information for those interested.

Question 1:
What’s the driver frame material? Plastic or metal (aluminum, magnesium, etc)?

Answer 1:
The driver frame is plastic. I believe it is a fibre/abs composite material. It looks somewhat similar to the material in the first pic you included.


Question 2:
I see you went with an asymmetrical frame design. Did you test any symmetrical designs? Most mid and high end drivers use a symmetrical frame design to prevent rocking. I know that the Ora diaphragm itself has excellent performance, but given that it’s a somewhat rare opportunity for a company to develop a driver from scratch, it’s the perfect opportunity to take advantage of desirable design features when costs allow.

Answer 2:
We did not actually design the driver from scratch. We are considering a ground-up design for our next headphone driver (maybe 50mm) but for this first unit we wanted to limit the risk and the development time. We selected an existing design similar to <major manufacturer name redacted by Slater>. The driver we started with is a proven high-performer used in a couple well-respected products. We designed a new membrane geometry and suspension, optimized for GrapheneQ, to work with the existing driver.


Question 3:
Are the drivers going to be glued into the cup, or attached with screws/clips?

Answer 3:
The drivers get glued to the ear baffle. The ear baffle is attatched with screws and threaded brass inserts. The driver/ear baffle assembly is user replaceable since the electrical connection to the PCB is socketed. If there are issues with a driver, Ora would provide a replacement assembly.


Question 4:
If an Ora owner wants to buy (1) spare pair of drivers for DIY, will Ora make them available as a spare parts? I know there are a couple of us DIY modders on HeadFi that are extremely interested.

Answer 4:
Besides ordering replacement driver/baffle assemblies, it is unlikely that we will make these drivers available to DIYers for the time being. Ora is very focused on getting this technology into products from major consumer electronics brands and, until we have established those relationships, we don’t want to jeopardize those negotiations by making the drivers commercially available, even in small quantities.

 

[SHAMuuu]

Yeah, I asked them about that.

Here’s the full conversation (they told me it was OK to post the full conversation). Hopefully it will be useful information for those interested.

Question 1:
What’s the driver frame material? Plastic or metal (aluminum, magnesium, etc)?

Answer 1:
The driver frame is plastic. I believe it is a fibre/abs composite material. It looks somewhat similar to the material in the first pic you included.


Question 2:
I see you went with an asymmetrical frame design. Did you test any symmetrical designs? Most mid and high end drivers use a symmetrical frame design to prevent rocking. I know that the Ora diaphragm itself has excellent performance, but given that it’s a somewhat rare opportunity for a company to develop a driver from scratch, it’s the perfect opportunity to take advantage of desirable design features when costs allow.

Answer 2:
We did not actually design the driver from scratch. We are considering a ground-up design for our next headphone driver (maybe 50mm) but for this first unit we wanted to limit the risk and the development time. We selected an existing design similar to <major manufacturer name redacted by Slater>. The driver we started with is a proven high-performer used in a couple well-respected products. We designed a new membrane geometry and suspension, optimized for GrapheneQ, to work with the existing driver.


Question 3:
Are the drivers going to be glued into the cup, or attached with screws/clips?

Answer 3:
The drivers get glued to the ear baffle. The ear baffle is attatched with screws and threaded brass inserts. The driver/ear baffle assembly is user replaceable since the electrical connection to the PCB is socketed. If there are issues with a driver, Ora would provide a replacement assembly.


Question 4:
If an Ora owner wants to buy (1) spare pair of drivers for DIY, will Ora make them available as a spare parts? I know there are a couple of us DIY modders on HeadFi that are extremely interested.

Answer 4:
Besides ordering replacement driver/baffle assemblies, it is unlikely that we will make these drivers available to DIYers for the time being. Ora is very focused on getting this technology into products from major consumer electronics brands and, until we have established those relationships, we don’t want to jeopardize those negotiations by making the drivers commercially available, even in small quantities.

Thx 4 sharing buddy. My marketing senses are tingling.

I was a bit upset with Sony mdr-1Am2, as i have a 1R and would've loved if they improved on it like the Z7M2. I know Sony got a lot of shyte on the Z7. Is it coincidence with the more symmetrical design hmm.... how many top phones have this flaw.
Audio Technica with new msr7B (pic is of original msr7 stepped it up vs 1Am2 especially with its balanced connection as well to boot!

 

[Katze²]

Eh, I think you're overestimating the importance of radially symmetrical venting. You can mostly rectify rocking by simply increasing the permeability of the vent holes around the PCB as you can see in the picture you posted. Having symmetrical venting also does not account for non symmetrical lead wire glueing, uneven flux distrubution in the airgap, non symmetrical suspension stiffness or the unevenness of the acoustic load infront of the diaphragm. An uneven acoustic load can for example occur when some parts of your outer ear (like the helix) are closer to the diaphragm than others. There are also some headphones like the AKG K812 where 2/5 of the diaphragm are blocked (unsymmetrically) by the protector infront of the diaphragm:

Spoiler

There are a bunch of headphones with drivers that have unsymmetrical venting and still get excellent distortion and minimal (driver) resonances like the Fostex TH900 or the cheap Focal Listen.
Motor/diaphragm design and good manufacturing practice are much more important for a transducer's quality than the PCB soldering terminal destroying that eye pleasing symmetry.

 

[SHAMuuu]

Eh, I think you're overestimating the importance of radially symmetrical venting. You can mostly rectify rocking by simply increasing the permeability of the vent holes around the PCB as you can see in the picture you posted. Having symmetrical venting also does not account for non symmetrical lead wire glueing, uneven flux distrubution in the airgap, non symmetrical suspension stiffness or the unevenness of the acoustic load infront of the diaphragm. An uneven acoustic load can for example occur when some parts of your outer ear (like the helix) are closer to the diaphragm than others. There are also some headphones like the AKG K812 where 2/5 of the diaphragm are blocked (unsymmetrically) by the protector infront of the diaphragm:

Spoiler

There are a bunch of headphones with drivers that have unsymmetrical venting and still get excellent distortion and minimal (driver) resonances like the Fostex TH900 or the cheap Focal Listen.
Motor/diaphragm design and good manufacturing practice are much more important for a transducer's quality than the PCB soldering terminal destroying that eye pleasing symmetry.

Hi thank you for your response.
This is just a friendly chat, i will just present some counter points.
I stated before the differences are not so big, but they are there. I was referring to the symmetrical (generally speaking as some adopt some tri pattern or star like venting) venting of magnet and housing having holes somewhat in symmetrical fashion for equal air distribution resulting in more linear mechanical behavior relation to the supension system preventing rocking, wobbling, crinkling etc. From what I understand there are thermal advantages for symmetrical cooling as the electrical system gets even cooling, as well as equal venting more predictable resonances from the sound created from leaving those venting holes. Im sure these would be so minimal , a human's poor hearing system will not be able to tell too much, but they are all measureable.

Also the k812 , the driver seems to be designed properly, and that blocking on the surface of membrane is a tuning property.

Pioneer Se Master 1 also seems to do well designing the driver

Now these two "flagships" did not receive great praise, but moreso for their tuning. I don't think the drivers are badly deisgned, they look fantastic! Any tuning leads to subjective impressions.

As for th900, they were lazy and just made a Japanese version with the same chinese foster biocellulose in Denon products with a higher magnetic flux. And as fun as Denon products are, those drivers are cheap design. Fostex could have made a more highly advanced driver, but why? They knew it would sell with just slight improvement no need to design new one from scratch for flagship. Made in Japan and nice red cups.

Its a very cheap driver design. That is my opinion flagships have responsibility to make the best driver possible. If I am wrong ok, i am wrong with lots of things in life lol

Ksc75 is the most crappy membrane, wussy voice coil, cheap magnet and housing on earth, but somehow sounds good. So a bad driver can be tuned/color to sound good but does not mean driver is designed good IMO.

Sometimes tone can be misinterpreted online and feelings hurt because one owns a certain headphone. I have many crappy designed driver headphones i like.

Good point on ear and such, but that is not headphone fault. That is flaw of any headphone. Except maybe k1000 and sigma pro which don't fire directly into ear.

 

[Katze²]

Sometimes tone can be misinterpreted online and feelings hurt because one owns a certain headphone. I have many crappy designed driver headphones i like.

Yeah, I think you misinterpreted my tone, lol. I didn't mean to be condescending whatsoever. I actually agree with you in that I love to see things like lead wires that are not glued to the diaphragm, symmetrical venting holes or no holes at all (like the Utopia), big center dome vents, vented airgaps, etc.
To me the last couple pages just read like not having those things makes a driver automatically worse than a driver that does have those things which just isn't true.
But I guess I overreacted.

 

[SHAMuuu]

Yeah, I think you misinterpreted my tone, lol. I didn't mean to be condescending whatsoever. I actually agree with you in that I love to see things like lead wires that are not glued to the diaphragm, symmetrical venting holes or no holes at all (like the Utopia), big center dome vents, vented airgaps, etc.
To me the last couple pages just read like not having those things makes a driver automatically worse than a driver that does have those things which just isn't true.
But I guess I overreacted.

Ha! I was referring to my tone as my style of writing can be misinterpreted easily as posts are typed quicky and on touchy subjects. My English is not strength .I had no problem with your sayings at all.
And yeah, most of this started when one member was talking of stiff diaphragms drivers from aliexpress because as many drivers keep coming out with these "revolutionary" materials but do very little on the other stuff. Same generic designs.

So I was saying that if the dome is too stiff it can be problematic with the points we have been discussing. Much of what i gathered i learned from reading the klippel measuring research in Germany and just simple obervation/research.

I don;t have problems with sub $500 cans cutting corners, but i do with $500+ ones who just market the membrane material as this magic recipe with overall poor design in other areas.


And yes I'm big on QC and proper facilities !

 

[RenZixx]

Hi thank you for your response.
This is just a friendly chat, i will just present some counter points.
I stated before the differences are not so big, but they are there. I was referring to the symmetrical (generally speaking as some adopt some tri pattern or star like venting) venting of magnet and housing having holes somewhat in symmetrical fashion for equal air distribution resulting in more linear mechanical behavior relation to the supension system preventing rocking, wobbling, crinkling etc. From what I understand there are thermal advantages for symmetrical cooling as the electrical system gets even cooling, as well as equal venting more predictable resonances from the sound created from leaving those venting holes. Im sure these would be so minimal , a human's poor hearing system will not be able to tell too much, but they are all measureable.

Also the k812 , the driver seems to be designed properly, and that blocking on the surface of membrane is a tuning property.

Pioneer Se Master 1 also seems to do well designing the driver


Now these two "flagships" did not receive great praise, but moreso for their tuning. I don't think the drivers are badly deisgned, they look fantastic! Any tuning leads to subjective impressions.

As for th900, they were lazy and just made a Japanese version with the same chinese foster biocellulose in Denon products with a higher magnetic flux. And as fun as Denon products are, those drivers are cheap design. Fostex could have made a more highly advanced driver, but why? They knew it would sell with just slight improvement no need to design new one from scratch for flagship. Made in Japan and nice red cups.



Its a very cheap driver design. That is my opinion flagships have responsibility to make the best driver possible. If I am wrong ok, i am wrong with lots of things in life lol

Ksc75 is the most crappy membrane, wussy voice coil, cheap magnet and housing on earth, but somehow sounds good. So a bad driver can be tuned/color to sound good but does not mean driver is designed good IMO.

Sometimes tone can be misinterpreted online and feelings hurt because one owns a certain headphone. I have many crappy designed driver headphones i like.

Good point on ear and such, but that is not headphone fault. That is flaw of any headphone. Except maybe k1000 and sigma pro which don't fire directly into ear.

I do not really think that the Fostex th900 is a cheap driver. Bio-cellulose is pretty expensive to manufacture and achieving 1.5 Tesla is pretty hard in that scenario (dynamic drivers). This asymmetrical vent holes intrigue me because hardly anyone talks about this (I never noticed this was a problem, tho very minor), I do not really this making a asymmetrical driver in an symmetrical driver would be revolutionary but is a small difference. Maybe a symmetrical design may reduce THD by 0.35-0.96 percent.

 

[SHAMuuu]

I do not really think that the Fostex th900 is a cheap driver. Bio-cellulose is pretty expensive to manufacture and achieving 1.5 Tesla is pretty hard in that scenario (dynamic drivers). This asymmetrical vent holes intrigue me because hardly anyone talks about this (I never noticed this was a problem, tho very minor), I do not really this making a asymmetrical driver in an symmetrical driver would be revolutionary but is a small difference. Maybe a symmetrical design may reduce THD by 0.35-0.96 percent.

You would have to take my comments in context. Yes the TH900 is beautiful, and biodyna material is sweet. I really wanted it to be my endgame. But when i heard them like the th-x00, th900 etc, something was a bit off. When I say cheap design, it seems they just recycling it with slightly updated magnet system. I don't see a whole lot of innovation and they could have done so much more. I don't blame them as they make more $$$ and really why fix what works in the market, Denon d2/5/7k had legendary status. But its sad when they release these new models, and not much has changed really. Surely they could've improved. And yes i love the membranes they use.

The changes are probably minimal, but this is a site where cables and stones and other stuff is accepted so i am a little ocd with symmetry ok. I have to have my clicks equal on me headband OCD. some people just snap em on with 3 on one side and 6 on the other

With Sony they made giant leap in their 70mm from the xb1000 to the Z1R, and i dont; think Fostex did same from their older drivers to the modern one, seems like little tweaks more than an overhaul. That just me maybe i dont know haha its 3am and im confused thinking about headphones

 

[RenZixx]

You would have to take my comments in context. Yes the TH900 is beautiful, and biodyna material is sweet. I really wanted it to be my endgame. But when i heard them like the th-x00, th900 etc, something was a bit off. When I say cheap design, it seems they just recycling it with slightly updated magnet system. I don't see a whole lot of innovation and they could have done so much more. I don't blame them as they make more $$$ and really why fix what works in the market, Denon d2/5/7k had legendary status. But its sad when they release these new models, and not much has changed really. Surely they could've improved. And yes i love the membranes they use.

The changes are probably minimal, but this is a site where cables and stones and other stuff is accepted so i am a little ocd with symmetry ok. I have to have my clicks equal on me headband OCD. some people just snap em on with 3 on one side and 6 on the other

With Sony they made giant leap in their 70mm from the xb1000 to the Z1R, and i dont; think Fostex did same from their older drivers to the modern one, seems like little tweaks more than an overhaul. That just me maybe i dont know haha its 3am and im confused thinking about headphones

Well I can't really get why people just go click click click and then look like retards (no offense).

 

[kman1211]

Thx 4 sharing buddy. My marketing senses are tingling.

I was a bit upset with Sony mdr-1Am2, as i have a 1R and would've loved if they improved on it like the Z7M2. I know Sony got a lot of shyte on the Z7. Is it coincidence with the more symmetrical design hmm.... how many top phones have this flaw.
Audio Technica with new msr7B (pic is of original msr7 stepped it up vs 1Am2 especially with its balanced connection as well to boot!

Honestly never really looked into the symmetry thing. It’s interesting, all of the headphones I’ve liked the most and have stood the test of time had symmetrical designs. Though there are some I don’t like as much. The only time I heard it talked about in the past was with the Nighthawks where a goal of symmetry was mentioned. It’s mentioned in this article on innerfidelity. While it’s tuning is very controversial, the headphones fidelity is good.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/audioquest-reveals-upcoming-headphone-nighthawk

This may partly explain why basically every German-made Beyer I’ve heard sounds right to me even if the tuning isn’t to my liking as I believe all of them are symmetrical in their venting, tuning choices aside as tuning can be fixed/altered.

 

[SHAMuuu]

Honestly never really looked into the symmetry thing. It’s interesting, all of the headphones I’ve liked the most and have stood the test of time had symmetrical designs. Though there are some I don’t like as much. The only time I heard it talked about in the past was with the Nighthawks where a goal of symmetry was mentioned. It’s mentioned in this article on innerfidelity. While it’s tuning is very controversial, the headphones fidelity is good.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/audioquest-reveals-upcoming-headphone-nighthawk

This may partly explain why basically every German-made Beyer I’ve heard sounds right to me even if the tuning isn’t to my liking as I believe all of them are symmetrical in their venting, tuning choices aside as tuning can be fixed/altered.

Even with Audio Technica, you can see why you pay more for the higher models

I'm aware many prefer the ad2000 to the ad2000X, so it can be preference. But According to Audo Technica it is improved driver design. They said it not me.

Coincidence ?

 

[SHAMuuu]

I was thinking about 58x or 660S to get to compliment my HD580 but then I thought i should look a little deeper. I didn't care much before, because well I was happy with the HD580 and didn't see HD600/650 as an upgrade. And no way a HD700. The 58x hype got to me a little, but i don't know
some strange observations please click SPOILER at bottom (I am just trying this first time)

Anyway , I'm not saying the 58x driver is from their lower series with diff coil, membrane etc. But differences are there on visual inspection. w/e or 660S is using some modified hd700 not saying that but there are some eery things about the two. But there are some very strange things. I remember Tyll almost crying, his heart was broken with 660S. And that always stuck with me. But they look so good.
And I don't get the whole 58x is at same level / surpasses 6xx.600.650, and same level as 660S . I love Sennheiser but , these mysteries ... could the 660 be hiding a circuit board , is it their dirty likkle secret? Why its so much more than 600/650?





I think I'll need to demo 660S,they all look so identical, but with a microscope there are some strange German mysteries.... ooOOOooooOoooooOooooo Wonder where Tyll is on his journey and if he saw this too.

Spoiler