[J-Pak]

Are you using the Woo as a preamp? If not comments on how it sounds as a preamp? Thanks

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by canloader The differences I see between the SR-303 and HE60 is that the 303 sound seems to be right at the ears in the midrange and bass frequencies. While the 60’s soundstage deals all frequencies with almost even temperament. The depth and width of the soundstage is just chilling. They remind me of a Martin Logan sound signature with high frequency response surpassing. Now the STAX have about 200+ hrs on them (not all head-time) and have become quite refined. The 60 are brand new so I can only imagine what lies ahead. It’s just amazing how different these three setups sound!

Thanks, that clarifies things. The HE60 is one potential upgrade for me, with the other being the SR-007.

That 303 looked like the 404 with your orange white balance

And is that the SR-001 sticking out in the corner? It's such an incredibly underestimated little headphone!

 

[Nomad]

BTW, congratulation on your cans.

Sometimes I wonder why Senn doesn't make electrostatics anymore. It's sad.

 

[Anders]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomad Sometimes I wonder why Senn doesn't make electrostatics anymore. It's sad.

Agree, HE60 with an improved version of the amplifier would be a terriffic combo. I don't know if it is possible to improve HE60 at that price level but think they easly could make a significantly better amplifier without going much higher in price.

 

[neilvg]

The practical uses for it are small. Especially considering the fact that it NEEDS an amp. Even a 300-500 dollar phone is pushing the upper extremes for sennheiser. Think about it, other than Headfi, our hobbie is 'very' rare especially when compared to the high end speaker market.

Anyway, dynamic phones have come a long way, and in most cases for most people, they work wonderfully. It takes a rare and special breed to dig on electrostats and sennheiser is a huge company, they don't deal in the small figures (which these cans would be). I don't think senn has ever done a real limited edition run (I know there were some HD580 jubilee's etc...). AT on the other hand does...

 

[gpalmer]

Great headphone, I absolutely love what it does with the stickwork on the drums. Man, you can hear every little detail. Enjoy it you lucky, oops, edited for family hour...

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder why Senn doesn't make electrostatics anymore. It's sad.

Seems to me a lot of headphone related gear does not get any noticed until it is no longer available and this can is a prime example.Do a search on how much "chatter" there was here when this was a full poduction item then compare that to recent threads (numers of).
no company removes a big seller from their lineup so anything lablelled "disconinued" means "did not sell"

 

[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 no company removes a big seller from their lineup so anything lablelled "disconinued" means "did not sell"

Not always. Sometimes a product costs more to produce than anticipated, and the company simply isn't making enough money per sale, or can actually lose money (Despite the high cost of the R10, Sony lost money on every one they sold. Sony does make a profit on the Qualia 010, so any reports of its demise are premature at this point). Money loss can occur in various ways. If there is a high amount of product failure, even a decent initial profit will disappear in warranty work.

A more accurate definition of "discontinued" would be something like "did not make sufficient profit given the resources invested in construction". While this is correlated to sales volume, sales are not the only consideration. A big seller that is also a money loser is going to be dropped like a hot potato, unless the bean-counters determine that they can increase the price without a corresponding sales drop.

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 Seems to me a lot of headphone related gear does not get any noticed until it is no longer available and this can is a prime example.Do a search on how much "chatter" there was here when this was a full poduction item then compare that to recent threads (numers of). no company removes a big seller from their lineup so anything lablelled "disconinued" means "did not sell"

When was this can 'discontinued'? Btw... on an aside, just because something is discontinued or doesn't sell well, doesn't necessarily mean the product itself is no good (of course it can mean just that too). In the case of the HE60, I think it probably only holds real interest for us crazy head-fiers. As far as listening enjoyment goes, it'd be crazy IMHO to say that "the 650 doesn't do it for me at all" and "the HE60 takes me there"... I mean they are relatively similar considering they are totally different phones with totally different designs. In other words, it does have a bit of that 'senn' house sound... But it is also quite different, and not necessarily better.

Neil

 

[Nomad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg I mean they are relatively similar considering they are totally different phones with totally different designs. In other words, it does have a bit of that 'senn' house sound... But it is also quite different, and not necessarily better. Neil

Really? I find both sound signatures really different, almost opposite. Bright and vivid (HE60) instead of relaxed and a tad dark (HD650), although both great each one on its style. This might sound strange but I find the Omegas much much (2nd much on purpose) closer to that "senn" house sound. Maybe it is just me?

Anyway... Whatever as long as it sounds good!

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilvg ... As far as listening enjoyment goes, it'd be crazy IMHO to say that "the 650 doesn't do it for me at all" and "the HE60 takes me there"... I mean they are relatively similar considering they are totally different phones with totally different designs...

I have to disagree. I think that headphone hi-fi gets more subjective, not less, the higher up you go - up to a point. At the very highest tier, imperfections start disappearing and sound signatures begin to converge, though the differences are, of course, still quite evident. The differences between the HD650 and the SR-404 are very, very pronounced, but which one is better is a fairly subjective thing. The HE90 and R10 or 010 are also quite distinct, but they're closer in sound signature than the tier right below them.

I've done a few little experiments in this, letting friends (more like forcing them to) listen to some of the various rigs that I have or had at one point or another. Even though most of them don't have one iota of audio experience other than what I've let them hear, they can, more often than not, latch on to the major differences in sound signature between the different systems without any commentary on my part to pre-color their judgement. These differences are not placebo effects.

And then, of course, we have the people with lead ears who can't tell the difference between the SR-404 and iPod earbuds. Bless them, the lucky bastards. May their wallets never suffer!

 

[neilvg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nomad Really? I find both sound signatures really different, almost opposite. Bright and vivid (HE60) instead of relaxed and a tad dark (HD650), although both great each one on its style. This might sound strange but I find the Omegas much much (2nd much on purpose) closer to that "senn" house sound. Maybe it is just me? Anyway... Whatever as long as it sounds good!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatScratch I have to disagree. I think that headphone hi-fi gets more subjective, not less, the higher up you go - up to a point. At the very highest tier, imperfections start disappearing and sound signatures begin to converge, though the differences are, of course, still quite evident. The differences between the HD650 and the SR-404 are very, very pronounced, but which one is better is a fairly subjective thing. The HE90 and R10 or 010 are also quite distinct, but they're closer in sound signature than the tier right below them. I've done a few little experiments in this, letting friends (more like forcing them to) listen to some of the various rigs that I have or had at one point or another. Even though most of them don't have one iota of audio experience other than what I've let them hear, they can, more often than not, latch on to the major differences in sound signature between the different systems without any commentary on my part to pre-color their judgement. These differences are not placebo effects. And then, of course, we have the people with lead ears who can't tell the difference between the SR-404 and iPod earbuds. Bless them, the lucky bastards. May their wallets never suffer!

WHAT!! You guys both disagree with me! Blasphemy! Mine is the word of GOD herself! Double Blashemy!!

Actually, strangely, I think I actually agree with you guys. Reading my own msg, I think I miss-translated my own sentiments a little.

I have never heard the Omega II's actually, and honestly, I don't consider the 600's (only marginal time with the 650's) to be 'dark' per se. I do find them laid back and less 'peaky' in those upper-mid regions and treble (upper-mid treble 8-12khz) where many phones to me seem to spike.

Having said that, going from the balanced 600's out of an SDS-XLR to the HE90's, I could hear many similarities... same with the 60's, but also many differences... I feel my last post didn't quite articulate my stance enough. Anyway, I don't think the 600's are dark, but the HE60's (more experience then with the 90's) are definitely bright! Or tend to be. Also, transient speed, and treble energy in general on these senn electrostats is just off the charts when compared with the HD series (havent heard 595's).

Neil

Anyway, I can definitely 'tell' the difference between an IPOD earbud and the HE90's! I mean, Duh! One is small and fits in the ear, and the other is a clunker and needs this big amp and stuff and fits around the ear.

LOL

EDIT: Maybe we have a different idea of 'dark' but for me, a can like the L3K is DEFinitely dark. The L3K to me sounds bumped up in the mid range and in the upper mids (at around 800-1.6khz especially though). I find that this, coupled with a generally 'rolled' off 'feeling' to the high's, I don't necessarily think it is, but it sounds like this with that mid-hump, in addition to a phone that is not the most detailed (not the least detailed either) and you get a 'dark' sounding phone with a sonic signature that is influenced heavily by the way it reproduces the midrange. I find that with some amps, this can be almost 'shouty' and unpleasant (I think the L3K's are in fact more amp picky than people have previously thought; although burn in (200 hrs) does definitely change the mid range tonal balance).

When I switch from the L3K's to the HD600's, I go WHOA, Brighter phones! Faster sounding phones! When I switch to the HE60's from the 600's I go, WHOA! Brighter phones! Faster sounding phones!

 

[Aryolkary]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch And then, of course, we have the people with lead ears who can't tell the difference between the SR-404 and iPod earbuds. Bless them, the lucky bastards. May their wallets never suffer!

If they can't tell the difference, they are missing so much... Anyway that doesn't mean they can't learn or are condemned to that level of appreciation.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

A more accurate definition of "discontinued" would be something like "did not make sufficient profit given the resources invested in construction". While this is correlated to sales volume, sales are not the only consideration. A big seller that is also a money loser is going to be dropped like a hot potato, unless the bean-counters determine that they can increase the price without a corresponding sales drop.

Quote:

Btw... on an aside, just because something is discontinued or doesn't sell well, doesn't necessarily mean the product itself is no good (of course it can mean just that too). In the case of the HE60, I think it probably only holds real interest for us crazy head-fiers. As far as listening enjoyment goes, it'd be crazy IMHO to say that "the 650 doesn't do it for me at all" and "the HE60 takes me there"...

I don't beleive either to be the case here.Sennheiser has been willing to do short runs which would mean LESS profit margin when they have to start up an entire line no longer in operation or the parts readily at hand at assembly stations.Every level of short production runs means much higher end consumer cost or less profit and no way around it.
The part about "crazy headfiers" again I ask where were all these headfiers before the product was discontinued ? Read the old threads,see how few there actually are then read the threads in the last year and you will see a day and night comparison.
I seen something similiar with the Grado SR-40 portable cans.Never ever mentioned,no one wanted them,considered crap when the SR-60 was considered a huge step in value then Grado anounces they will no longer be available and everyone runs to buy out all remaining stock,the reviews roll in.All glowing and then the "so how come they were discontinued" threads.This has become a pattern where a thing is beneath notice until it is no longer available then everyone wants in.
Companies do not set the market but consumers do and if you offer a product at a fair profit margin that does not sell for whatever reason in a high enough quantity to justify keeping an inventory and an assebly line open then it goes away.That is why so many high end audio manufacturers have gone to the custom build "one of" "one at a time" route.A man (or woman) would go broke always building but not selling.

I think like many things here these things are more fad than anything else that once a discussion begins on a thing everyone wants in and want their ticket to the party.Many damn fine examples of the audio arts have gone the way of the dinosaur only becuse of low popularity and not because there was anything wrong with either the quality of the item,the price or the actual design sonics and is part of doing business.

Hell,I could have it all wrong but in my experience you never take a money maker off the table and in high end audio where $10K will buy you a $500 amp especially so.The present popularity of this particular headphone can be traced directly to the recent thread chatter and it did not overnight become anything other than what it was before the band started playing on the back of the wagon

Just observation folks,don't shoot me

 

[Anders]

rickcr42:
"The part about "crazy headfiers" again i ask where were all these headfiers before the product was discontinued ?"

I think the interest for HE60 awoke when some Head-Fiers discovered that it can be driven by other amplifiers than the original, or when that knowledge was spread.