[EYEdROP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Is that the 99.00 studio amp? Pro studio gear always offers the best bang for the price. What receiver were you using? I am using the Yamaha V1800 which has a very good headphone out.. My GP amp is better, but I tend to use my receiver more to boost the treble & I don't need to use a 0hm adapter which restricts the DT48 IMO.. & to those that don't know, 15% is a great improvement when you are dealing with grade A headphones, & diminishing returns hit quickly in audio. I just might buy the HD800 instead of the oppo83SE.. I can sell one of my HDTV's, my Denon 5900, receiver, & maybe one of my DT48.. I really want to hear the 'best' in terms of cutting edge technically merit..

Yeah, its $99 now but I got it for less. I figured I would get a pro audio amp being that pro studio gear usually quite uncolored and low noise. There is a hum that starts half way on the volume knob. But I never turn it that high.

My Yamaha receiver has a headphone jack impedance of 680 ohms and 0.3V. Not exactly perfect for low ohm headphones. I dont know if 15% is accurate or not. But me and other people definitely notice a pretty big improvement.

 

[Drosera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, it's time we sell our DT48 for a Bose quiet comfort or Beats by Dre headphone since they both sell for over 300 & sound better then the DT48..

Actually, to a lot of people those would sound better than the DT48. Really depends on where your priorities/preferences lie.


Going through n3rdling's assessment:

Quote:

Zero definition in bass timbre, average in terms of detail

This didn't sound so strange to me as it might do to other DT48 fans. I was never particularly impressed with the level of detail offered by my DT48s. Sure, nice enough, but I always appreciated them mainly for their frequency response. But these last few days I've been listening to my recently arrived older DT48 (25 ohm) and comparing it to my other, new(ish) 25 ohm version. And I'm afraid I can only echo what KBI, Acix et al have said in the past: all DT48s are not created equal. The older version appears to have a much flatter response, next to that the modern version seems bloated in the treble and particularly in the bass. Whether this bloat obscures detail in the modern version or not, it's certainly obvious that the older version has much more detail and texture, especially in the midrange and bass. It's not that the modern 25 ohm version sounds bad of itself, but in comparison to the older one...

Another aspect of detail is that most of the detail offered by the DT48 is midrange detail. While most headphones seem to emphasise treble detail. (Moreover, n3rdling is a Stax expert, and electrostats present detail in a completely different way again. But let's not go there.) So it really depends what kind of detail you're listening for.

Quote:

almost no soundstage, isolates well

I think this confuses soundstage and headstage (which I think is a valuable distinction, once you learn to differentiate between the two). As I like to define them, soundstage is the amount information on depth and width (and even height) present in the recording, headstage is the amount of soundstage a headphone imparts on the recording. A K500 (or K701, going by the reports) has a huge headstage. Whether the recording has a large soundstage or not, it will place the music on a large stage regardless.
I would describe the DT48 as having a decent soundstage (particularly as most of the information has to come from the midrange), but a virtually non-existent headstage.
Now, I have the strong feeling that headstage is actually for a large part a factor of how well a headphone isolates. For example, to demonstrate this you only have to remove the covers of the DT48 cups, e ... presto, more headstage.

Quote:

poor frequency extension

Can't argue with that, accept...that I don't know why people keep referring to it by this term. It actually extends just fine, it's just that there's a huge roll-off on both sides (especially in the treble).


I actually think n3rdling's assessment is a valuable one, because (except perhaps for the lack of detail) his impressions will mirror a lot of people's first (brief) experience with this headphone.

 

[Drosera]

On a side note, our friend Neptius in the T1 thread seems to suggest here, that there will be headphones produced by beyerdynamic which are similar to the DT48 but based on the Tesla driver. An intriguing prospect.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drosera /img/forum/go_quote.gif On a side note, our friend Neptius in the T1 thread seems to suggest here, that there will be headphones produced by beyerdynamic which are similar to the DT48 but based on the Tesla driver. An intriguing prospect.

That would be awesome. About N3rdings comments.. I can't argue with some of his points, albeit some seem more like half truths. He just states them so negativly, that puts me on the defensive. no pro/con.. It seems more like bashing or a hatred towards them. Every time he mentions the DT48 it is negative, with a drive by mentality. A verbal hit and run. It's like the DT48 has done something to him personally. If he stated his case more objectly I'd be fine with it. And he lacks credability. Can you really gauge a headphones merits during a 5-15 minute audition, at a meet no less. Especially a headphone as un convential and different as the DT48. You will never hear me attack or degrade a STAX headphone. And this needs to be mentioned again for the 18th time. The DT48 was never made for the consumer market. They were made to fit the strict guidelines and standards of NAGRA. And sounding like a headphone, ie non manufactured size, width, depth of a sound stage shouldn't be a capitol offense. Oh no. We have headphones that don't try to be something they are not... They have the nerve to sound and act like a headphone.

 

[Drosera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif That would be awesome. About N3rdings comments.. I can't argue with some of his points, albeit some seem more like half truths. He just states them so negativly, that puts me on the defensive. no pro/con.. It seems more like bashing or a hatred towards them. Every time he mentions the DT48 it is negative, with a drive by mentality. A verbal hit and run. It's like the DT48 has done something to him personally. If he stated his case more objectly I'd be fine with it. And he lacks credability. Can you really gauge a headphones merits during a 5-15 minute audition, at a meet no less. Especially a headphone as un convential and different as the DT48. You will never hear me attack or degrade a STAX headphone. And this needs to be mentioned again for the 18th time. The DT48 was never made for the consumer market. They were made to fit the strict guidelines and standards of NAGRA. And sounding like a headphone, ie non manufactured size, width, depth of a sound stage shouldn't be a capitol offense. Oh no. We have headphones that don't try to be something they are not... They have the nerve to sound and act like a headphone.

If the DT48 can be dismissed with a single remark, it means that it has at least achieved similar head-fi status to headphones like the K701 ("no bass!", "plastic mids!", "screechy highs!") or the K1000 (just "no bass!").

While I agree that it takes more than say 10 minutes tot properly evaluate the DT48, I also recognize that if the disadvantages of the DT48 get completely in the way of enjoying its advantages, then you will never like it anyway.

Like I said in the other thread, it's funny that headphones can be so polarizing. I don't think you'll find disagreement to this extent on the quality of speakers, for example. Headphones are weird, problematic and always a compromise. How the manufacturers resolve the compromises determines the signature of a headphone and also explains why there's such a wide variety of signatures in headphones.

(Unfortunately, this also means that there isn't a single headphone out there that does everything equally well. A decent universally performing speaker is probably much easier to find.)

The DT48 is really off the beaten headphone path, and because of that, will be more polarizing than most headphones.

 

[k3oxkjo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drosera /img/forum/go_quote.gif Like I said in the other thread, it's funny that headphones can be so polarizing. I don't think you'll find disagreement to this extent on the quality of speakers, for example.

Actually, we are a bunch of Chior Boys sitting around singing "Kumbaya" compared to some of the speaker fights I have seen...

Kevin

 

[k3oxkjo]

Any of you guys heard the Sennheiser audiometric phones?

Kevin

 

[Drosera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, we are a bunch of Chior Boys sitting around singing "Kumbaya" compared to some of the speaker fights I have seen...

Uhm, okay, it's a universal human phenomenon then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any of you guys heard the Sennheiser audiometric phones?

I wish. They have a very interesting frequency response. Not cheap though and I've never seen one second hand yet.

 

[kool bubba ice]

Was one... mono termination.. I hear they have very extended highs...

 

[kool bubba ice]

I did some critical listening with my 8 ohm DT48 with 120 ohm adapter.. It is cardas recabled so take it for what it's worth.. I noticed the imaging is a little more horizontal & out there.. Music, placement is a bit more coherent & a sense of better placement.. Feels a bit 'natural', with mild but noticeable warmth tone & timbre.. Instruments seem to come alive more.. A lot of subtleties adds up to a noticeable improvement. Nothing ground breaking.. But if you are familiar with the DT48 sound you will pick up on the improvements.

Now.. HD800 or OPPO83SE..UGH!!

 

[k3oxkjo]

OK, so my K-1000 came yesterday, time for a quick comparison. The contenders this round:

AKG K-1000
Beyer DT-48 (vintage 25 ohm)
Sennheiser HD-800
Sony SA-5000

K-1000

The first thing I noticed here was the great transient response. Plucked guitar through these is excellent. The next thing was the fabulous headstage and sense of ambience. In these ways, this phone is about as good as it gets, IMHO. But the bass is a bit light. To me, it does cross the line to acceptable in extension, but you do wish there was a bit more (especially considering the $$$). The bass quality is fine. Treble can get a bit "sharp", but not really bright.

Detail is also very good, not quite up to my memory of the best stats, but let's not expect too much. They can play plenty loud but need some power, I would say at least 10 watts, preferably more. They do a wonderful job of seperating instruments, it's easy to follow the various musical lines.

HD-800

Here the first thing I notice is the great coherence. All the parameters are consistantly good and the ear is not pulled to a particular aspect of it's performance. But it must be said that, while the treble is a bit smoother and a bit brighter, it doesn't have the fabulous headstage or transient response of the K-1000 (though they are still quite good in these areas, the headstage may be better than anything not named K-1000). But the fuller bass here is certainly welcome.

They are a bit less detailed (not by much) and don't seperate the instruments quite like the K-1000, this may be where the K-1000 leads the HD-800 the most. But there is an organic, slightly regal sound to these phones which also serves the music.

SA-5000

Here the treble is a bright but very clean. The headstage is about par for the course and the bass a bit light, but again, over the Mendoza line. People look at the bass part of the curves on Headroom and think they will be very bass light, but the curves can be misleading (for reasons I won't go into). The transient response here sounds as good as the HD-800, but that's the only way these are as good as the HD-800 and the bass extension is comperable to the K-1000. Otherwise these are just not as good as the above units. But let's remember that they are $350 new and have a pretty good build and overall sound. I like 'em better than my K-701, and that's not chopped liver...

DT-48

It's hard to compare these to the others, they are so different. There's no attempt to create any kind of a headstage, the sound strays resolutely between your ears. There is no attempt to have an extended response, the treble is a bit soft and "closed in" and the bass is light. But, but, but...

They are detailed within their range and very clear and articulate in the midrange with a non-spectacular but "true blue" sound. They create their own intimate, somewhat dark, world. While the other phones (try) to sound like a concert or a speaker, the DT-48 sounds like a mike feed in the control room, albeit with somewhat restricted bandwidth.

Conclusion

The HD-800 and K-1000 are formidable headphones. The are certainly different but excellent. If I could only have one, I would pick the HD-800 for it's consistancy and easier drive requirements. I can take a long walk with my HD-800, Zune and IBasso portable amp and enjoy a symphony, I don't think that would be possible with the K-1000.

But I am just scratching the surface with the K-1000, they may be even better than I know. I am glad that I don't have to choose one or the other.

With the two above, the SA-5000 is a bit unnecessary, I guess. They don't really add anything the above don't have and are not overall as good headphones as either. But they are less expensive and alternatives to the HD-600/K-701 kind of stuff, I like 'em a bit more than my K-701, so that's saying something.

The DT-48 is just a different breed of cat. Considering their unique presentation and less than stratospheric price, they are definite keepers. Ultimately, I like them better than the SA-5000, though others may find the DT-48 too weird and prefer the more mainstream sound of the Sony's.

Kevin

 

[kool bubba ice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by k3oxkjo /img/forum/go_quote.gif OK, so my K-1000 came yesterday, time for a quick comparison. The contenders this round: AKG K-1000 Beyer DT-48 (vintage 25 ohm) Sennheiser HD-800 Sony SA-5000 K-1000 The first thing I noticed here was the great transient response. Plucked guitar through these is excellent. The next thing was the fabulous headstage and sense of ambience. In these ways, this phone is about as good as it gets, IMHO. But the bass is a bit light. To me, it does cross the line to acceptable in extension, but you do wish there was a bit more (especially considering the $$$). The bass quality is fine. Treble can get a bit "sharp", but not really bright. Detail is also very good, not quite up to my memory of the best stats, but let's not expect too much. They can play plenty loud but need some power, I would say at least 10 watts, preferably more. They do a wonderful job of seperating instruments, it's easy to follow the various musical lines. HD-800 Here the first thing I notice is the great coherence. All the parameters are consistantly good and the ear is not pulled to a particular aspect of it's performance. But it must be said that, while the treble is a bit smoother and a bit brighter, it doesn't have the fabulous headstage or transient response of the K-1000 (though they are still quite good in these areas, the headstage may be better than anything not named K-1000). But the fuller bass here is certainly welcome. They are a bit less detailed (not by much) and don't seperate the instruments quite like the K-1000, this may be where the K-1000 leads the HD-800 the most. But there is an organic, slightly regal sound to these phones which also serves the music. SA-5000 Here the treble is a bright but very clean. The headstage is about par for the course and the bass a bit light, but again, over the Mendoza line. People look at the bass part of the curves on Headroom and think they will be very bass light, but the curves can be misleading (for reasons I won't go into). The transient response here sounds as good as the HD-800, but that's the only way these are as good as the HD-800 and the bass extension is comperable to the K-1000. Otherwise these are just not as good as the above units. But let's remember that they are $350 new and have a pretty good build and overall sound. I like 'em better than my K-701, and that's not chopped liver... DT-48 It's hard to compare these to the others, they are so different. There's no attempt to create any kind of a headstage, the sound strays resolutely between your ears. There is no attempt to have an extended response, the treble is a bit soft and "closed in" and the bass is light. But, but, but... They are detailed within their range and very clear and articulate in the midrange with a non-spectacular but "true blue" sound. They create their own intimate, somewhat dark, world. While the other phones (try) to sound like a concert or a speaker, the DT-48 sounds like a mike feed in the control room, albeit with somewhat restricted bandwidth. Conclusion The HD-800 and K-1000 are formidable headphones. The are certainly different but excellent. If I could only have one, I would pick the HD-800 for it's consistancy and easier drive requirements. I can take a long walk with my HD-800, Zune and IBasso portable amp and enjoy a symphony, I don't think that would be possible with the K-1000. But I am just scratching the surface with the K-1000, they may be even better than I know. I am glad that I don't have to choose one or the other. With the two above, the SA-5000 is a bit unnecessary, I guess. They don't really add anything the above don't have and are not overall as good headphones as either. But they are less expensive and alternatives to the HD-600/K-701 kind of stuff, I like 'em a bit more than my K-701, so that's saying something. The DT-48 is just a different breed of cat. Considering their unique presentation and less than stratospheric price, they are definite keepers. Ultimately, I like them better than the SA-5000, though others may find the DT-48 too weird and prefer the more mainstream sound of the Sony's. Kevin

It really seems like the DT48 is out of place with the other 3. I noticed you seemed a bit stumped or tried to really put your words together more carefully when talking about the strength and overall sound, since they are so different. I guess they need to be judged on their own merit. But for the insane price on then, it's hard not to have at least two. I really did think you would prefer the K1000 over the HD800.

I do appreciate the shoot out. It made my day. I would choose the HD800 over the K1000 due to drivability, and much easier to take with you. With the K1000 you are bound to the power amp like a ball and chain.

 

[duke11235]

Just ordered a pair of Beyerdynamic DT48e new from B&H. Heard they had near the best piano sound, so they should be good for my DP. Yes, I have an amp/dac that should fit the bill. Does using an equalizer help with the weak treble, bass? Do I need a 100 ohm adaptor, and if so, could you link one. If the sound is anything like what you described, than It should be good for its purpose, but I'm curious.

Thank You

 

[kool bubba ice]

This is what Erik says. He owns the HP2/HD800/Expensive stats.

And about the DT48... it is often said that the best gear is also the most unremarkable. There might not be flourishes and glitz, but hearing a transducer reproduce the piano so right is remarkable. Even moreso after hearing so many get it wrong.
Uncle Erik

EQing does help.. I raise the treble & highs when using my receiver. I still recommend the vintage version, even though the new versions sound more like modern headphones..Better bass & treble extension.

 

[Drosera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by duke11235 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just ordered a pair of Beyerdynamic DT48e new from B&H. Heard they had near the best piano sound, so they should be good for my DP. Yes, I have an amp/dac that should fit the bill. Does using an equalizer help with the weak treble, bass? Do I need a 100 ohm adaptor, and if so, could you link one. If the sound is anything like what you described, than It should be good for its purpose, but I'm curious. Thank You

What it gets right for me with piano is especially the variety of sound available. The same key struck with different gradations of dynamics can sound very different. A lot of other headphones seem to emphasise either a soft rounded tone or a brilliant, sparkling tone.
A judiciously applied equaliser should help to compensate for the the roll-off in the highs, bringing out a bit more of the harmonics.

Whether you need a 100 (or rather 120) ohm adapter is completely up to personal taste, hard to advice on that matter. Personally I'm not a fan, but some others wouldn't listen to it without one. I believe a good one could be ordered from one of head-fi's sponsors, but I've forgotten which one.

So maybe someone else can chime in here.