[grizzlybeast]

   
Yes.  I don't find the HD650 any warmer than the K712 though, so it's something else in this case.

lol not to correct you but dark and warm arent synonyms in this situation
 
dark=treble roll off
 
warm=low end strength.
 
I am sure you find the k712 wayy brighter than the hd650. imo its treble is NOT neutral.
 
For the hd650 its midbass coupled with lower mids sometimes makes for  a thick sound thats  not good for a lot of acoustic. So to rephrase the above a lot of people find headphones without treble and sub bass boring. Also it is slow when not amped right and the decay is somewhat smooth but slow making it more romantic and smokey than spritely and live. 
 
The energy of the transient response is why it excels with hip hop and rock etc. Again it is the impact it has that gives it what I would perceive as more bass . Also because the business of those genres they dont sound too splashy with bright highs and no wieght. If I were a JAZZ head and classical head these would be keepers!
 
But for acoustic and female singers or classical etc they may be a bit thick and loose the sheen of instruments compared to a k712. 

 

[chicolom]

   
I am sure you find the k712 wayy brighter than the hd650. imo its treble is NOT neutral.

 
 
I didn't find K712 way brighter.  I found them pretty similar in terms of treble extension, air, etc.
 
So, I don't find the HD650 any darker than the K712.  I do find the K712 a little warmer.

 

[kman1211]

  lol not to correct a supremus but dark and warm arent synonyms..
 
dark=treble roll off
 
warm=low end strength.
 
I am sure you find the k712 wayy brighter than the hd650. imo its treble is NOT neutral.
 
For the hd650 its midbass coupled with lower mids sometimes makes for  a thick sound thats  not good for a lot of acoustic. So to rephrase the above a lot of people find headphones without treble and sub bass boring. Also it is slow when not amped right and the decay is somewhat smooth but slow making it more romantic and smokey than spritely and live. 
 
The energy of the transient response is why it excels with hip hop and rock etc. Again it is the impact it has that gives it what I would perceive as more bass . Also because the business of those genres they dont sound too splashy with bright highs. 
 
But for acoustic and female singers or classical etc they may be a bit thick and loose the sheen of instruments compared to a k712. 

I have to agree with you on that, I find the K712 brighter(definitely a spike somewhere) and not as warm as the HD 650, I find the HD 650 does have the more natural sound of the two. The Senn has noticeably more impact to it's bass as well which probably contributes to the sense of warmth. My complaint about the HD 650 is that for some odd reason I just can't connect to the music on the headphone, it's exciting at first due to the impact and warmth but I quickly grew bored of it regardless of system whether super high-end or budget. As for sub-bass and lack of highs, it's not what I personally consider what makes the headphone fun or not, it's something more subtle, for example I have an old vintage headphone that has almost no highs, has virtually no mid or sub bass, lacks detail, is veiled and a little muddy yet has one of the most addicting sounds I have ever heard.

 

[grizzlybeast]

   
 
I didn't find K712 way brighter.  I found them pretty similar in terms of treble extension, air, etc.
 
So, I don't find the HD650 any darker than the K712.  I do find the K712 a little warmer.

wow.... 
 
that is all I can say to that... WOW.
 
no offense man cause you are a super nice dude but you gotta get them ears checked.

 

definitely the biggest treble spike compared and there you have hp's in the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of bright to dark.

 

[grizzlybeast]

 
I have to agree with you on that, I find the K712 brighter(definitely a spike somewhere) and not as warm as the HD 650, I find the HD 650 does have the more natural sound of the two. The Senn has noticeably more impact to it's bass as well which probably contributes to the sense of warmth. My complaint about the HD 650 is that for some odd reason I just can't connect to the music on the headphone, it's exciting at first due to the impact and warmth but I quickly grew bored of it regardless of system whether super high-end or budget. As for sub-bass and lack of highs, it's not what I personally consider what makes the headphone fun or not, it's something more subtle, for example I have an old vintage headphone that has almost no highs, has virtually no mid or sub bass, lacks detail, is veiled and a little muddy yet has one of the most addicting sounds I have ever heard.

this makes a lot of sense to me. 
 
Also at low volumes the senn is cool but I have to turn it up to get it going. It def is not perfect. It needs better instrument seperation for one.

 

[kman1211]

  this makes a lot of sense to me. 
 
Also at low volumes the senn is cool but I have to turn it up to get it going. It def is not perfect. It needs better instrument seperation for one.

I like the K712 but that spike is preventing me from getting it and I just think the K612 sounds more natural and neutral, it's just a side-step to what I have and not in a good way for my personal tastes. I do like the HD 650, but I have to approach it in a more laid-back and relaxed manner because it's not a musical headphone to me. Every headphone has it's flaws and the flaws can vary from person to person, it's just a matter of finding what suits ones tastes, what you're willing to tolerate and what you're not willing to tolerate, and also hearing differences from person to person, I personally can't stand overly bright or overly spikey treble and I have to have at least some euphony(which varies from person to person), so my options are limited because of that, but if the headphone is euphonic and has tame enough treble for me, I'm very forgiving of them unless comfort is bad.

 

[chicolom]

K712 has an upper mid peak that can potentially make it sound bright at times, but the treble itself isn't that bright sounding.  Mainly the upper mids.  Even with the Q701, I would describe the treble as sounding slightly smooth, but it sounds bright because of the dry peaky upper mids. 
 
Most people who've heard the Anniversaries and HD650s say they sound pretty similar (apart from soundstage), and I would agree.  Last time I took the Anniversaries to a meet and let people compare with the HD650, several people said the Anniversaries were darker than the HD650.  And the K712 is slightly smoother sounding than the Anniversaries.
 
I don't know what else to say.  To me they're both warm headphones.  Neither sounds bright to me.   I stand by what I said last time I compared them:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/626971/akg-k702-65th-anniversary-edition/3030#post_9819324

 

[kman1211]

  K712 has an upper mid peak that can potentially make it sound bright at times, but the treble itself isn't that bright sounding.  Mainly the upper mids.  Even with the Q701, I would describe the treble as sounding slightly smooth, but it sounds bright because of the dry peaky upper mids. 
 
Most people who've heard the Anniversaries and HD650s say they sound pretty similar (apart from soundstage), and I would agree.  Last time I took the Anniversaries to a meet and let people compare with the HD650, several people said the Anniversaries were darker than the HD650.  And the K712 is slightly smoother sounding than the Anniversaries.
 
I don't know what else to say.  To me they're both warm headphones.  Neither sounds bright to me.   I stand by what I said last time I compared them:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/626971/akg-k702-65th-anniversary-edition/3030#post_9819324

The upper treble is what is bright, it has a 8-10khz peak like the K240, K271, DT 880, DT 990, T1, T90, HD 800, etc. Most people I know can hear it. You could possibly have low sensitivity to or even hearing loss in the upper treble. The Annies were actually on dark side even in the upper treble. The K712 and Annies are warm with the K712 being warmer, but the K712 is a bit bright in the upper treble and the Annies are not. The Q701, etc. also don't have the 8-10khz peak the K712 has.

 

[chicolom]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on the K712 having bright peaky treble. 

 
It is no where near as bright as DT990, T90, T1, etc.  Not even close. The K712 is lacking air next to the Q701, which is lacking air next to the HE400, which is lacking air next to the DT990/T90.
 
 

 

[kman1211]

  I guess we'll agree to disagree on the K712 having bright peaky treble. 

 
It is no where near as bright as DT990, T90, T1, etc.  Not even close. The K712 is lacking air next to the Q701, which is lacking air next to the HE400, which is lacking air next to the DT990/T90.
 
 
 

I'm not saying it's as bright as those, I was saying it has a spike in a region there like they do which adds to brightness and emphasizes sibilance and tizziness a bit. The 8-10khz region doesn't really add air from my experience, it adds sibilance and a bright sharpness more than anything. I believe it's the the region above the 8-10khz region is what adds air to the sound, which is why headphones that have rolled off highs or lack extension up top tend to lack air. I personally found the K240 brighter than the DT 990 due to the K240 having just as big of a spike and grainier treble. The T90, T1, and HD 800 were torture to my ears. I find the Q701 for example brighter in the upper midrange and lower treble, the K712 was brighter in the upper treble.

 

[Mambosenior]

I also must agree with Chicolom. A peak on a graph does not characterize the overall even sound of the 712. It is a very musical and pleasant HP capable of delivering well-recorded material beautifully. By far, better than all the AKG K and Q models, infinitely more to my liking than all the Beyers (except the DT-880/600 and T1), and the Hifiman (except the HE-5LE and 6). It does well with SS or tube amps although I prefer it balanced with a SS speaker amp. The latter implementation brings it ridiculously close to the HD-800.

Anyway, that's my two rusty cents, and we all do have our own perception of what constitutes good sound.

 

[grizzlybeast]

not saying its a bad hp, just genre specific and the hd650 is significantly darker and considered a dark hp.. also that the treble is not neutral for sure on paper and listening.

 

[kman1211]

I wasn't saying it was a bad headphone either, actually I like the headphone quite a bit, more than most headphones in it's price range. I was just pointing out some issues I had with them.

 

[BillsonChang007]

I guess we'll agree to disagree on the K712 having bright peaky treble.  :blink:

It is no where near as bright as DT990, T90, T1, etc.  Not even close. The K712 is lacking air next to the Q701, which is lacking air next to the HE400, which is lacking air next to the DT990/T90.

The Annie that I have, have treble spike to my ears with certain tracks too. What I did was turn down 2.5KHz and 3.2KHz a notch down and everything sound slightly better

 

[chicolom]

The Annie that I have, have treble spike to my ears with certain tracks too. What I did was turn down 2.5KHz and 3.2KHz a notch down and everything sound slightly better

 
I'd call 2.5khz and 3.2khz more of an upper mids peak.  Maybe lower treble.