[bluey_02]

iPod: sleek, sexy and (looking at its features, battery length, hdd size and of course price) a steal.

Zune: looks average (when compared to iPod) and perhaps a little less value for your money (seeing as how battery lasts much shorter, and the sending of songs wirelessly feature does not make for a killer app, as in, nothing that will make the average consumer put down his/her iPod for a Zune)

Also, the Zune doesn't work on iTunes and if Apple controls 88% of the market then M$ suddenly has a far smaller market to exploit. And don't scream, BUT IT SENDS SONGS WIRELESSLY. Bah, M$ was stupid in not exploiting this further by offering a method of BUYING songs at hotspots (perhaps this will be implemented) to make it an advantage over Apple's offering, besides the feature is only detrimental as the low battery life shows. All in all, I don't see this product doing very well unless those schlubs at Redmond can make it look as hip and hop or whatever pleases the Mtv loving idiots segment as an iPod.

If I've stuffed up my assumptions or facts let me know.

 

[m_memmory]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessingx If Apple is stagnating, then isn't this the perfect time for others (even small companies) to innovate and quickly make in roads? It's a fallacy the iPod is only about advertising, but even if true, Sony's always had the brand name and clout. Creative just got $100 million infusion to do with what they will. Even this poll is interpreted as iPod users aren't loyal and would switch if something better came along. So it's much more anyones game than people realize. That's the big difference in the occasional comparison between Apple DAP dominance and Microsofts OS dominance. Apple iPod growth was natural, still has much competition (so not a monopoly), and its lead could disappear quite quickly (remember Rio and Creative both held the top spots earlier).

But Rio did innovate and created an audiophile DAP but couldn't compete with Apple and died - I know that Creative, iRiver & Cowon seem to be larger companies with more resources then Rio but why innovate? The one other (small) company that did that (and actually created something good) died. Wouldn't fill me with much of an encouragement to innovate (IMO)

Quote:

Seriously would some of you sacrifice Creative, iRiver, Sony, etc. (at least in the States and Europe as you mentioned) just for better iPods? That's what it sounds like from the comments. Sacrifice the market for better products by Apple cause they're too lapse with their big share (and by implication, I guess, the whole market can't continue until they do - though that I don't understand). But when do two competitors ever create more innovation then six or ten long term? Film studios? Auto manufactures? Newspapers? I can't think of a single example except maybe when grouping gigantic funding is necessary. Space programs? Maybe, but seriously with Creatives "gift," Sonys might, and Samsung and SanDisks electronics connections, do you really think money and clout is what's standing in the way of innovation?

Personally I'd prefer as many competitors as possible but with the things that I'm interested in it always seems to be a case of 2 companies fighting it out in the long run (from what I've seen) Graphics card chips: it's now just ATI and Nvidia. Processors: it's now just Intel and AMD. I've always liked consoles and that has had many people attempt to innovate (Atari, Amiga, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sega, Sony) and has (for years) always seen to be only able to support 2 major players (used to be Sega & Nintendo, then Sony & Nintendo and now it looks like Nintendon - in home consoles - are carving out a niche as they can't/don't want to go head to head with Sony & Microsoft)

Quote:

That all said it's not that I think MS shouldn't be able to release a DAP. I just fear the ramifications for this market.

I think it's a case of Microsoft stepping in as they realise that PlayForSure wasn't working as much of a competitor. Many analysts seem to suggest that Apple has about 80% of the DAP market (in the US it seems) and you say that's not a monopoly? Now sure, worldwide there are many other manufacturers who are making and researching and doing well in other markets but 80% is a massive share and it's pretty obvious to Microsoft that Apple have things settled at the moment and iRiver, Creative and the rest of the PlayForSure weren't making any inroads into that market. I would've loved for them to be able to keep going with it and see what happened with different players but it seemed to me that Apple had it pretty much sown up.

All that being said this is just my own opinion and I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of DAPs and the market etc. Others will have their own view and may know much more about what's actually going on.

Let the debates reign on. And I just hope that innovation continues (whoever comes up with the new ideas)

 

[pds6]

My first dap was a Creative Jukebox (I paid $500.00 for a 5 or 6 gb player). This was before the introduction of the first iPod. I used a program called SoundJam MP Plus to manage my music on my Mac.

Apple bought SoundJam and this became iTunes. Creative dropped all further support for the Apple platform. I bought an iPod and haven't looked back.

I have already been burnt. I don't care how good the player, I well never buy another dap that I even have the slightest hint won't be supported in 2 or 3 years.

As a very practical matter, the Zune well create less and not more competition.

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by m_memmory But Rio did innovate and created an audiophile DAP but couldn't compete with Apple and died - I know that Creative, iRiver & Cowon seem to be larger companies with more resources then Rio but why innovate? The one other (small) company that did that (and actually created something good) died. Wouldn't fill me with much of an encouragement to innovate (IMO)

Unless you think Rio died because it innovated, the point then would be to create a marketplace where a company like Rio could survive, not force another company near the top to change though a single new competitor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m_memmory Personally I'd prefer as many competitors as possible but with the things that I'm interested in it always seems to be a case of 2 companies fighting it out in the long run (from what I've seen) Graphics card chips: it's now just ATI and Nvidia. Processors: it's now just Intel and AMD. I've always liked consoles and that has had many people attempt to innovate (Atari, Amiga, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sega, Sony) and has (for years) always seen to be only able to support 2 major players (used to be Sega & Nintendo, then Sony & Nintendo and now it looks like Nintendon - in home consoles - are carving out a niche as they can't/don't want to go head to head with Sony & Microsoft)

You may have a point. There are several examples of that such as the two U.S. political parties. Then again you could then turn around and say it's only natural progression eventually to effectively be a sole company at the top (unless initiatives - often government - are there to stop). MS in OS, Apple with DAPs, AT&T in telephone, Clear Channel in radio, Standard Oil in oil, Debeers in diamonds, etc. And I don't know the video card history, but arguably CPUs and video game have stagnated more since they've becoming two party systems (just ever increasingly more computing power - there are of course a ton of variables here, but games have unified around "controllable movies", and the PC CPU hasn't undergone any recent radical designs - everyone uses a x86). Course like everything, the big steps are taken at the front, so unchecked markets may condense around a single or dual corporate head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m_memmory I think it's a case of Microsoft stepping in as they realise that PlayForSure wasn't working as much of a competitor. Many analysts seem to suggest that Apple has about 80% of the DAP market (in the US it seems) and you say that's not a monopoly? Now sure, worldwide there are many other manufacturers who are making and researching and doing well in other markets but 80% is a massive share and it's pretty obvious to Microsoft that Apple have things settled at the moment and iRiver, Creative and the rest of the PlayForSure weren't making any inroads into that market. I would've loved for them to be able to keep going with it and see what happened with different players but it seemed to me that Apple had it pretty much sown up.

The number alone doesn't equal monopoly (it's what MS did to get to its high share that has caused its legal problems, not that it's there and again someone aggressively could take Apple out in 2-3 years - not likely in the OS world). If PlayForSure doesn't work, change it. In the end the MS Zune store will be another WMA based DRM system. I agree I think it's pretty obvious MS doesn't think it's "partners" were trying hard enough in this lucrative market, I just fear for those partners MS has fed until they unified around a MS/WMA system and is now going to abandon.

And as pds6 poached the subject, I'm on OS X too. I too had a NJB 1G as my first non-MD DAP. As iTunes/iPod gained marketshare with Mac users, Creative dropped Mac support. The major software audio player competition to iTunes, Audion (which I paid for) ceased. MacAmp (and various Mac Winamp projects) dried up. So did Mint Audio and Whamb. Effectively now if you use a Mac you're using iTunes even if you don't have an iPod (with open source VLC for "speciality codecs"). You're using MP3, AAC, or ALAC, not Monkeys, FLAC, Ogg Vorbis, etc. This may seem only natural in the MS world with the OS company having a player - WMP, etc. but it isn't on this side (and I've spent a lot more time on the other).

Anyway will see. A two party system is only one step away from a single party system in my book. Maybe Sony will finally get their act in gear and if Zune succeeds there will be at least the more stable three party system.

EDIT: As soon as I typed this I went to read my daily RSS feeds and this showed up.

 

[saronian]

Cross platform capability would be excellent PR for Microsoft Too bad they didn't want, or weren't able, to make it work with the Mac OS.

 

[gsansite]

Nobody's mentioned iTunes DRM yet, surely people will want to stick with iPod's if they can't play their music on the competition.

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsansite Nobody's mentioned iTunes DRM yet, surely people will want to stick with iPod's if they can't play their music on the competition.

Rumor has it MS has a gutsy plan for that...

Quote:

More speculative rumors abound. Among the more exciting (and supposedly true according to peeps in the know) is that Microsoft will buy-out users' collections of iTunes purchased music and replace the files with Zune-compatible music. As many fans are aware, music purchased from iTunes will not play on anything other than an iPod, a fact that makes leaving the Apple camp a near impossibility for committed iTunes fans. Replacing users' collections with Zune compatible files will cost Microsoft an arm and a leg, but may be a critical move if Microsoft truly intends to give Apple a run for their money.

 

[gsansite]

I'm guessing the replacement files will be locked to the Zune?

Nice.

 

[m_memmory]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blessingx Unless you think Rio died because it innovated, the point then would be to create a marketplace where a company like Rio could survive, not force another company near the top to change though a single new competitor.

I can't say for one reason or another why Rio died but innovation (research) costs a lot of money and is generally a risk to take - it's easier to stick with what you know works then to take a risk and create something new.

Quote:

The number alone doesn't equal monopoly (it's what MS did to get to its high share that has caused its legal problems, not that it's there and again someone aggressively could take Apple out in 2-3 years - not likely in the OS world). If PlayForSure doesn't work, change it. In the end the MS Zune store will be another WMA based DRM system. I agree I think it's pretty obvious MS doesn't think it's "partners" were trying hard enough in this lucrative market, I just fear for those partners MS has fed until they unified around a MS/WMA system and is now going to abandon.

I don't know how the systems for monitoring/controlling monopolies works in the States but in the UK if one company has a large enough control of one area then the government intervenes to stop them (and 80% would easily be classed as a monopoly) There's already been complaints from one supermarket to the complaints commission about another because they have 30% of the market and are said (by the people complaining) that they have a controlling monopoly.

Quote:

And as pds6 poached the subject, I'm on OS X too. I too had a NJB 1G as my first non-MD DAP. As iTunes/iPod gained marketshare with Mac users, Creative dropped Mac support. The major software audio player competition to iTunes, Audion (which I paid for) ceased. MacAmp (and various Mac Winamp projects) dried up. So did Mint Audio and Whamb. Effectively now if you use a Mac you're using iTunes even if you don't have an iPod (with open source VLC for "speciality codecs"). You're using MP3, AAC, or ALAC, not Monkeys, FLAC, Ogg Vorbis, etc. This may seem only natural in the MS world with the OS company having a player - WMP, etc. but it isn't on this side (and I've spent a lot more time on the other).

This'd be interesting to see how the EU would've seen this. They've only just finished imposing huge fines on Microsoft for "attempting to create a monopoly" by including Media Player and Internet Explorer included within Windows. They see it as Microsoft attempting to force through a monopoly on these programs and not giving anyone else a decent chance to build up a user base.

Quote:

Anyway will see. A two party system is only one step away from a single party system in my book. Maybe Sony will finally get their act in gear and if Zune succeeds there will be at least the more stable three party system.

I can understand where your coming from with a two party system but I feel that, at the moment, the system we already have isn't too far from the UK political system (using your same analogy) in that there are the 2 main political parties who vie for power but there are then 1 smaller party that is on the fringes and then lots of smaller groups who hardly get any votes when elections come around. We've currently got iPod way out ahead and everyone else fighting for the scraps (or so it seems)

I'm not bothered one way or the other if Microsoft do well - what I'd really like to see is Creative and iRiver and Cowon and San Disk and all the others really go for it and get a substantial market share for themselves and lots of competition. Unfortunately I think that the general public now see iPod as being THE MP3 player - when I used to walk around with my X5 everyone asked me what type of iPod that was ... I don't think people looking for a MP3 player are going to bother looking further past Apple's offerings which is a single party system really.

Of course (again) this is just my view and others will disagree I'm sure.

 

[m_memmory]

I guess the DRM argument again rears it's head - how we were able to get to a state where you can buy something and not actually own what you have brought (as in whoever created the DRM can dictate on what and where you can use what you legally brought)

Just the one reason why I'd never touch DRM music - I want to be able to use my music on any portable player I decide ... seeing as it's my music that I've brought. But again that's an old debate that rages on and on

 

[gsansite]

Quote:

Originally Posted by m_memmory Unfortunately I think that the general public now see iPod as being THE MP3 player - when I used to walk around with my X5 everyone asked me what type of iPod that was ... I don't think people looking for a MP3 player are going to bother looking further past Apple's offerings which is a single party system really.

m_memmory, you have made some very interesting points but I do beleive that the MP3 player=iPod assumption is finally dying down.

As a fellow Englander I have noticed that Sony's latest offerings have had a surprising amount of success over the last year, mostly due to price slashes, the Sony name, and a surprisingly effective ad campaign. Also, if you go through london in rush hour you will see more more people using no brand flash players or mobiles than you will iPods (although you will see a lot of iPods).

I think people do now realise there is more than just iPod available and it would now be possible for the right player to give it some real competition.

 

[jimmyjames8]

Who paid API Research to do the poll and why??? MS??? You know those magazines that are market specific or trade mags that publish 10 best or 100 best places to work and other 10 best lists. As a company, you pay to get on those lists and you have to buy full page advertising in those mags to get consideration. The poll is a marketing ploy, plain and simple.

 

[imported_Echo_]

think if microsoft just asked dell and other oem manufacturers to add in a zune to their desktops and laptops so those who buy it get a zune for little or free with the system. That wouldn't be a bad idea if they could suffer the $ losses.

 

[m_memmory]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echo_ think if microsoft just asked dell and other oem manufacturers to add in a zune to their desktops and laptops so those who buy it get a zune for little or free with the system. That wouldn't be a bad idea if they could suffer the $ losses.

This would only work if the people who then get a free Zune then sign up for one of the music lease programs or actually buy songs from the Zune marketplace (assuming that Microsoft makes money from the downloads etc which I would assume they would) Otherwise they are just giving away free hardware to people for no gain at all. People (like me) who don't ever touch DRM music would never be giving money back to Microsoft for the money layout to begin with.

If they do this though I'd be interested, I'm going to be looking to upgrade my PC in the next 3-4 months and if someone wants to give me a free Zune for doing it I'll accept (I can flog it on eBay then and get some cash back!!)

 

[pds6]

Very good decision!

May I add a fact that I have found fascinating: In Japan, the largest seller of music is not iTunes or another music store. The largest seller of music is the telephone company. I am sure our Japanese Head-Fi can confirm this.

The reason for the telephone company download? The Japanese don't trust online credit card transactions. They would rather pay for the downloads in their monthly phone bill.

Except for the higher-end specialty market, the days of the dap only are coming to an end. I think the "Dap Wars" are over. The cell-dap-gps-video-smartphone-camera-wifi-recording-blue tooth-thing is on the horizon.