[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why is it so hard to believe? Would you expect the same sound from a pair of demanding speakers powered by a T-amp as you would if they were powered by a Krell?

If the T-amp would be giving less power that what the speakers need, you should expect something different.

But, I would expect the Behringer A500 (BEHRINGER: A500) to sound the same as something other (krell or whatever) that has similar specs to power some speakers that get into what the amps can feed power to, regardless of their price/brand.

That is the different "thinking" I am trying to share.

That can also be applied to headphone amplifiers. It is with electrostatic headphone amplifiers where I am having my doubts (because there are no measurements avaliable I know of), such as the RMAA tests that are there regarding other SS or tube amps.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not really much to say regarding to this, apart from the tone. As well as my opinion should be taken with a "large pinch of salt", all the opinions taken from anyone in this forum should be taken with a grain/pinch of salt.

You did not appropriately contextualise your opinion. That was my issue. And the source of my "tone" as you phrase it. And while I did not mean to belittle you or offend you. And I apologise fully and unreservedly if I have done so, I do wish to contest with some of the things you have said, or elsewise to obtain further clarifaction on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif What I was trying to say is that it becomes easy to take all of your comments (speaking in general) "with a grain/pinch of salt" when not everyone thinks the unit is "that bad" so that it becomes completely unlistenable, and also if some people are willing to believe that changing cables or tweaking (other things I am not going to add) can make a difference. If i know that beforehand I am more prone to think that either they are exaggerating a lot, they are believing it, or there is really an audible difference that can really bother some and others not. To sum it up it could be rephrased as "getting some "objective" information from people here is a very difficult task.

I've not said that the combination is unlistenable. The TakeT/212 combination is unlistenable. However, within the context of a comparison with the larger amplifier, the O2/212 combination is middling and poor. Pour as much salt on the combination as you like, it son't make it taste any better.

I don't want to bring your cable reference into it because that opens a can of worms that would detract from the discussion here.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I am not saying they said it directly, I am just saying that a lot of people can't believe that two amplifiers that one costs "x" (because it sells at that price) can't compete or it has to sound different to another one that costs "y" (y<<<x) Finally, before I get insulted or anything similar (which also tends to happen a lot as far as anyone "thinks different") I would like to say that I am trying to understand more here. I could be making some mistakes (well, everyone does), but I would be willing to understand why I made that mistake, and I woul accept I was wrong.

I'm not going to comment on price of amps because it's simply not a factor in what I'm trying to discuss (other than the fact that the more capable amp in my context is more expensive, I'm not talking about uber money boutique amps. I'm also not intending to insult you. I simply want to be clear about what is being said.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif If the T-amp would be giving less power that what the speakers need, you should expect something different.

Would you assert that they would sound the same when used within the same power output range. I.E. when only using 4 watts to power an efficient horn?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif But, I would expect the Behringer A500 (BEHRINGER: A500) to sound the same as something other (krell or whatever) that has similar specs to power some speakers that get into what the amps can feed power to, regardless of their price/brand.

Nominal power is not everything. Especially when one amp, compared to another, may not offer the same catagory of power into the variences of a load. If a speaker is 8-Ohm nominal. It may have dips which go down to 1ohm or as high as 100-ohms depending on the design and two amps which have the same power rating into an 8-Ohm nominal load will not sound anything like each other if one of them starts to strain at 4-Ohms while the other is designed to cope down to 2-Ohms. The Omega 2 has a largely fluctuating impedance curve depending on the frequency and as such an amp which powers it has to be able to maintain sufficient power output into those fluctuations and not just the nominal values, which both the 717, BH and 212 might offer similar numbers into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is the different "thinking" I am trying to share. That can also be applied to headphone amplifiers. It is with electrostatic headphone amplifiers where I am having my doubts (because there are no measurements avaliable I know of), such as the RMAA tests that are there regarding other SS or tube amps.

I'm not going to talk on measurement numbers because I consider my understanding of the mathematics to be insufficent. I defer to the understanding of others in this regard, but this does not mean that I would not voice my disagreement with something based on numbers which does not concur with my personal experience.


Additionally:


You have now said that you don't have the measurement you would like to have in order to be able to come to a numerical comparison of electrostatic amplifiers, and yet you also seem keen to put forth that there mustn't be a large difference in the 212 and larger amps?

 

[Currawong]

Bullseye: You came here asking for advice. Now you're arguing about, relatively, whether a mini could tow a truck (it could, just barely maybe, but not in a satisfactory way). So, a relevant question is, would you like people's experienced advice on what Stax system to get, or would you just like to argue numbers (which wont help)?

My advice, from experience is that it would be better to get vintage Lambdas or similar, as there is a larger variety of amps that will drive them sufficiently and enjoyably. Whatever you get will sound better with, for the most part, the bigger and more powerful amps.

 

[morphsci]

ES-1 --> Sr-007 Mk. 1 = Good
252 ---> Sr -007 Mk. 1 = NOT GOOD

This is based upon actually hearing it and not judging from manufacturers specs.

 

[SmellyGas]

Well, okay, now I'm a bit confused. According to an ancient paper on electrostatic amplifier design in JAES, "the load, the electrostatic transducer, is a capacitor, the current requirement under normal operation is...extremely low (if not nonexistent). ...it is advantageous to use a large series resistance in the DC supply...which provides a current-limiting resistor to reduce the total current available to an extremely low level...if an accidental short circuit is placed on the output of the supply, the total maximum theoretical current available then will be 200 MICROamps (=0.2mA)...the actual measured current is 60 MICROamps)."

So even at 500V, we're talking 100mW if the headphones had an impedance of 0 ohms (short circuit). So I'm honestly confused as to why a small amp couldn't drive the SR-007's.

So far, one person has heard the SR-007 with the SRM-212 (the predecessor to the SRM-252) and thought it sounded bad. Apparently another person thought the combination sounded just fine. Does anyone else have experience? I'm still indebted to Bullseye for suggesting the possibility of low-cost amplification - otherwise, I might not have found the used market for other Stax amps.

 

[morphsci]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, okay, now I'm a bit confused. According to an ancient paper on electrostatic amplifier design in JAES, "the load, the electrostatic transducer, is a capacitor, the current requirement under normal operation is...extremely low (if not nonexistent). ...it is advantageous to use a large series resistance in the DC supply...which provides a current-limiting resistor to reduce the total current available to an extremely low level...if an accidental short circuit is placed on the output of the supply, the total maximum theoretical current available then will be 200 MICROamps (=0.2mA)...the actual measured current is 60 MICROamps)." So even at 500V, we're talking 100mW if the headphones had an impedance of 0 ohms (short circuit). So I'm honestly confused as to why a small amp couldn't drive the SR-007's. So far, one person has heard the SR-007 with the SRM-212 (the predecessor to the SRM-252) and thought it sounded bad. Apparently another person thought the combination sounded just fine. Does anyone else have experience? I'm still indebted to Bullseye for suggesting the possibility of low-cost amplification - otherwise, I might not have found the used market for other Stax amps.

Look at the post above yours. I have heard the Omega II with the 252 and it does not sound good.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphsci /img/forum/go_quote.gif Look at the post above yours. I have heard the Omega II with the 252 and it does not sound good.

Oh okay. When you get a chance, would you mind elaborating on your listening experience? When you say "not good," what exactly did you find objectionable? Did you make the comparison in the same sitting with the same material? etc. Thanks!!

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Does anyone here, by chance, have any experience driving the SRM-007's with inexpensive SR-252? The incredibly wise Bullseye recommended this budget combination to me and I just wanted to make sure there weren't any caveats before I purchase the amp. (I tried asking this in a separate thread, but it got moved, then deleted?) Please take pity on me and answer if you know.

The incredibly wise Bullseye doesn't have any experience in any amps other than the Cute Beyond and Little Dot 1+ that he have. Moreover, he has never heard any stats either. So I don't why he often recommend amps that he has no experience with to others.

 

[SmellyGas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The incredibly wise Bullseye doesn't have any experience in any amps other than the Cute Beyond and Little Dot 1+ that he have. Moreover, he has never heard any stats either. So I don't why he often recommend amps that he has no experience with to others.

He quoted another user here that did have success with the 252 and the O2's.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmellyGas /img/forum/go_quote.gif He quoted another user here that did have success with the 252 and the O2's.

It is often said that members should only recommend gear that he/she has or had experience with and not based on what he read.

 

[derekbmn]

The lesser STAX amps cannot drive the O2s worth a damn. The slightly better 313 fails to drive them....period. I'm guessing the person that heard the lesser amp/O2 combo and liked it....has probably never heard them from anything better.

Honestly, I would rather listen to the Lambda Pros or even the 404s(yuck) off one of the lower amps than the O2s on it.

This is from actual experience with all the above phones.

 

[edstrelow]

When I first got my 007A I carried it around to use in locations where I had lesser amps like the SRM3. It still sounded somewhat like the 007A driven by the big 717, but the details were blurred and dynamics not vey good.
I have since stopped using these amps.

Apparently these two members have a hard time accepting that there are diferences in qualty between different amps, generally somewhat related to cost. They appear to think people here got into the costly equipment just because they were sold a bill of goods.

Most of us started out as sceptics, "cables don't make any difference" etc. I can remember it took me years to try even a modest upgrade in cables. But I gradually realized that there are a lot of subtleties to good sound that require specialized and expensive equipment.

If you don't want to believe people who have a lot of experience with these things you are wasting your time in this forum. You should probably go to a Canjam to hear what is being talked about.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Sherwood and I tried my O2 Mk2 out of Asr's SRM-1 Mk2 Pro at a meet 11/08, and it did not drive them nearly as well as it did an SR-Lambda and SR-Lambda Signature. The volume was much lower than the Lambdas when both were connected at the same time, and it seemed to lack bass vs the Woo GES (or SRM-T1 that we tried the O2 Mk1 and Mk2 with at the 02/14 meet).

I would not try to use the O2 with anything less than an SRM-T1 or GES, or SRD-7 Mk2 with an 8-12 watt amp. I most likely will be looking for a used KGSS or KGBH if I do keep my O2, but I'll keep the GES for everything else.

 

[John Buchanan]

I too noted that the SRM1 Mk2 Professional didn't drive the SR007 as well as the SRM-717 from the same CD player. To be more precise, it was a little more treble oriented and bass light compared with the 717. The SRM 1 Mk2 drove the Lambda Nova Signatures very well however, but with the volume control about 45 degrees less than the 007 or the Sigma/404 (the last two are about the same efficiency).

 

[Bullseye]

Just to add one more thing, how come the recommended amplifiers by STAX not be enough to drive their own headphones they designed? People say even the BH is not enough? Then what is it? Are STAX wrong? Is a thousand dollar piece of equipment not enough either -their own amps cost that much-?

I see there is something wrong here.