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Speaker amps for headphones
Mar 14, 2021 at 1:16 PM Post #3,511 of 3,871
Mar 17, 2021 at 4:28 AM Post #3,512 of 3,871
Roasty said:
Hey guys. Could I get some advice?

I'm using the rockna wavelight as dac/pre to an apollon power amp, to my susvara. It sounds amazing to me as it is right now, but is there any added benefit of adding a dedicated preamplifier to the setup?

Tube pre such as a line magnetic, modwright ls100, atma-sphere mp3. Or solid state like a Holo Audio Serene or musical fidelity m6s pre.

Or is it good enough just to keep on using my dac as a pre?

*edit

I have tried the wa33 as a pre, and also my Audiolab 8300a integrated in pre mode. And I didn't think the sound from either was better than the rockna as dac/pre. The 8300a as pre was actually quite bad.. So wondering if a dedicated pre would be a lot better.
Click to expand...

I can also attest that the Wavelight's variable analog output is so good that, one can easily skip a pre-amp. Apart from volume adjustment, the other reasons for adding a pre-amp would be; additional inputs/outputs, adding certain tonal color to the sound, improving aspects like soundstage/ bass slam, or bringing in some holography in the case of tube preamps. So if you are not in need of any of these, and if you subscribe to the sentiment that 'best pre is, no pre', and you are fine with the lack of dedicated phyla IR remote for volume adjustment on the Wavelight, then there is no need to add a pre in your chain.

That said, as for the 2 devices you have tested as pre-amps in your chain, here is my $0.02. I am inclined to think that, while the Audiolab is good in its own regards and is great for its price, is not quite transparent and resolving enough to pass along Wavelight's signal without doing sins of commission/omission. As for the WA33, I am not aware how the pre-outs are derived on the WA33, but I am of the opinion Woo optimised the circuit of the WA33 for headphone amplification and added the pre-outs just as an added functionality. I say that because 300B is a power tube, typically used in power amps than pre-amps. Not that 300B can't be used in a pre-amp, but I would think, to get the best out of the 300B in a pre-amp, you need a circuit optimised for pre-amp. Manley and a couple brands actually make 300B based pre-amps.

So it is possible that the 2 devices weren't necessarily the best examples of pre-amps out there. So it is possible you might get desirable results with the pre-amps from the brands you have mentioned.
 
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Mar 17, 2021 at 5:22 AM Post #3,513 of 3,871
EagleWings said:
I can also attest that the Wavelight's variable analog output is so good that, one can easily skip a pre-amp.
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in! I just had an acquaintance come over and have a listen to my system ie rockna/apollon/Susvara. He has his own audio shop and brings in some pretty high end stuff. I asked him his opinion on whether I should add a pre, and he said it is so good and transparent now that I might even jeopardise the sound somewhat if I added a tube pre. At the very most perhaps a passive pre.

I loaned him my susvara for him to have a go with his own amps and he used it with first watt sit2 and sit3 and he told me the susvara sounded better with the rockna/apollon. I guess validation is always nice.

I may still give a pre a go (be it tube or non tube), if anything, just to satisfy my curiosity. But yes, the rockna analog pre section is really surprisingly good.
 
Mar 17, 2021 at 8:41 AM Post #3,514 of 3,871
@Roasty , that is indeed great praise for the Wavelight's pre-amp capabilities. I heard that Rockna plans on adding analog-digital hybrid volume control to the Wavelight in the coming weeks. In my experience, digital attenuation is just not as good as analog attenuation. So I wrote an email to Nicolae asking if there will be an option to choose between the pure-analog and the hybrid volume control and he said yes.

For me, the nervosa of adding an additional pre is not the pre itself, but the interconnect. It costs extra and it can steer the tone and other characteristics in one direction or the other. So there sure are benefits to avoiding a pre. If only Rockna had added an IR remote. Oh well..
 
Mar 17, 2021 at 8:43 AM Post #3,515 of 3,871
Mar 20, 2021 at 4:13 PM Post #3,516 of 3,871
Just playing with my Van Alstine Ultravalve from my 2 ch stereo setup...

1616271198507.png



1616271235600.png



Dont try this at home!!
LOL
 
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Mar 20, 2021 at 10:50 PM Post #3,517 of 3,871
adydula said:
Just playing with my Van Alstine Ultravalve from my 2 ch stereo setup...

1616271198507.png


1616271235600.png


Dont try this at home!!
LOL
Click to expand...
I want to do something similar with my Scott 299D but I haven't been able to figure out the best resistor set(s) for all my headphones.
 
Mar 20, 2021 at 11:10 PM Post #3,519 of 3,871
Mar 20, 2021 at 11:35 PM Post #3,520 of 3,871
Roasty said:
I admit, I have never fully understood this.
Does this apply to all power amps?

Eg if I'm using a purifi class D power amp rated 227w into 8ohm, for a susvara, I'm out of the graph and in red zone. Based on the graph and explanation, do I have to use a resistor or just be very careful with the volume control?

Click to expand...

You can run any headphone off any amp. Just do a quick db to Watts calculation (every 3db is half the power) to figure out where you need to be power-wise and use the below link. So if you do 12db attenuation you'll be feeding ~14 watts to the Susvara. 15db would be 7 watts. You're wasting massive amounts of power through the resistors though. Better get like...100W resistors.

https://robrobinette.com/HeadphoneResistorNetworkCalculator.htm
 
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Mar 21, 2021 at 12:26 AM Post #3,521 of 3,871
A Jedi said:
You can run any headphone off any amp. Just do a quick db to Watts calculation (every 3db is half the power) to figure out where you need to be power-wise and use the below link. So if you do 12db attenuation you'll be feeding ~14 watts to the Susvara. 15db would be 7 watts. You're wasting massive amounts of power through the resistors though. Better get like...100W resistors.

https://robrobinette.com/HeadphoneResistorNetworkCalculator.htm
Click to expand...

Ok so I've tried reading through both webpages (several times). My knowledge on electronics is elementary at best. I know a few folks on TC and Susvara not using any resistors. Could u dumb it down for me?

A) Not safe for me to proceed as I am doing now (power amp, speaker taps adaptor, no resistor, susvara).
B) OK to proceed as I am now, but be careful of volume control.
 
Mar 24, 2021 at 10:16 PM Post #3,523 of 3,871
Roasty said:
Ok so I've tried reading through both webpages (several times). My knowledge on electronics is elementary at best. I know a few folks on TC and Susvara not using any resistors. Could u dumb it down for me?

A) Not safe for me to proceed as I am doing now (power amp, speaker taps adaptor, no resistor, susvara).
B) OK to proceed as I am now, but be careful of volume control.
Click to expand...
B.
If you don't exceed the max power for the headphone you are fine. A 500 watt amp can do 5 watts if the input signal level is controlled and/or the volume/gain is used properly. IMHO. I have used a Hafler DH500 (true 300 watts into 8 ohms) to drive my HE1000 and HE6 direct from the speaker terminals. Keeping the preamp volume at reasonable levels I could maintain 80 to 85 DB no sweat. I would never open the thing up, but I am sure my ears would quit before the headphones if I had ever had tried.

The chart only shows what happens at max output for a given amp... Amps are seldom run at their max power levels. Neither do you want to... but then you are in control of that. In my experience, any kind of resistor network (and I tried several different networks and types of resistors) reduces sound quality.
 
Mar 24, 2021 at 11:30 PM Post #3,524 of 3,871
mandrake50 said:
B.
If you don't exceed the max power for the headphone you are fine. A 500 watt amp can do 5 watts if the input signal level is controlled and/or the volume/gain is used properly. IMHO. I have used a Hafler DH500 (true 300 watts into 8 ohms) to drive my HE1000 and HE6 direct from the speaker terminals. Keeping the preamp volume at reasonable levels I could maintain 80 to 85 DB no sweat. I would never open the thing up, but I am sure my ears would quit before the headphones if I had ever had tried.

The chart only shows what happens at max output for a given amp... Amps are seldom run at their max power levels. Neither do you want to... but then you are in control of that. In my experience, any kind of resistor network (and I tried several different networks and types of resistors) reduces sound quality.
Click to expand...

The problem is that one time you accidentally bump the volume control. Poof :fire:
 
Mar 25, 2021 at 7:19 AM Post #3,525 of 3,871
A Jedi said:
The problem is that one time you accidentally bump the volume control. Poof :fire:
Click to expand...
I never accidentally bumped a volume control ever.
On the other hand the same applies to strong headamps like wells audio or schiit ragnarok.
 
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