Sound Science Corner Pub

[castleofargh]

Yes, and really thanks for that. I wasn't aware when I posted this article in the "Pub" which I initially wanted to -maybe- discuss, that I unknowingly stepped into a "hornet's nest situation" which happened recently. And to your point, it's not what you say, but how you say it. You just treated me, while having no bad intentions at all, from above, and you seem so triggered by recent events that you think I want to fight? No I don't.
You don't know me, I actually have my audio and hearing related science every single work day, that's enough, but I wanted to share and discuss something which I can rarely put on the table at my office.

Hope you and the moderators can find a recipe against trolling.

Don't worry about discussing something in the wrong thread, absolutely nobody stays on topic around here. I even tried to growl and show my teeth at some point, I even made a thread about off-topic, and not only did it achieve nothing, those gangsters went and posted off-topic conversations in that thread too.

At the same time, there is no cost or consequence for creating a new thread, so go ahead anytime you feel like it. Consider the Help forum, people create a thread for each and every question they have. Sometimes the first answer is enough and that's the end of that thread. The same is fine here.

Head-Fi has a mechanism for the granting of medals... Could something similar be used for users to report a potential troll or sealion? No ban or posting restriction, but something like a low-bar: “you’ve been tagged as potential troll or sealion… the community is watching you…”

I think that a number of trolls/sealions are just “playing” and stop as soon as they are formally identified.
If they are genuinely innocent, they should know how to change their interactions to get rid of that troll/sealion tag(s)… or risk an escalation into a temporary/permanent ban.
For the rest of us, it would be a warning: engage with caution… this user has one or more troll/sealion tag…

Just a proposal…

You'd have to suggest that to actual admins, but I don't think this is in line with the general will for this forum. It's a place that would prefer "everything is awesome" to "your social credit is too low".

 

[The Jester]

I sympathise with the problems you encounter,
I have also performed similar tasks on a global forum as one of three, my location, one guy in Europe and one in the US,
Expecting one person to be on top of things 24/7 is a bit much for a volunteer, but having “shifts” where something could be spotted early and nipped in the bud with a quick comment or edit, that could then be referred to a level above for final action / mediation …it worked well in my experience …

 

[Ryokan]

Don't worry about discussing something in the wrong thread, absolutely nobody stays on topic around here. I even tried to growl and show my teeth at some point, I even made a thread about off-topic, and not only did it achieve nothing, those gangsters went and posted off-topic conversations in that thread too.

It's better to be loved than feared.

 

[bigshot]

You really think the thread deleted last night was the run of mill trolling we typically see? Were there previous threads that included nazis, gender bigotry, religion and ethnicity? If so, I must have missed them.

Yes. It was just allowed to go on longer after it hit critical mass. It was clear where he was headed from the beginning. He was emboldened by not getting in trouble and ramped it up quickly. It's easy to think that attacks on other people are less serious than attacks on you and yours. I have received more than my share, and there's another here who has too. I can clearly see that there's way too much of it. We should all defend the people who participate here on a peer level from those who have no interest in participating and only want to tear things down. I don't need to weigh and measure the degree of each attack. I'd just like to see the attacks stop.

If nothing is done, then the alternative is to do what you did and fight back. I don't criticize what you did at all. You aren't responsible for other people's attacks. I didn't enter the fray because you were doing a good job of countering it. But I did submit multiple reports to the admins which were ignored for much too long.

 

[bfreedma]

Yes. It was just allowed to go on longer after it hit critical mass. It was clear where he was headed from the beginning. He was emboldened by not getting in trouble and ramped it up quickly. It's easy to think that attacks on other people are less serious than attacks on you and yours. I have received more than my share, and there's another here who has too. I can clearly see that there's way too much of it. We should all defend the people who participate here on a peer level from those who have no interest in participating and only want to tear things down. I don't need to weigh and measure the degree of each attack. I'd just like to see the attacks stop.

If nothing is done, then the alternative is to do what you did and fight back. I don't criticize what you did at all. You aren't responsible for other people's attacks. I didn't enter the fray because you were doing a good job of countering it. But I did submit multiple reports to the admins which were ignored for much too long.

Thanks for clarifying and your understanding of why I continued to respond to an obvious troll

I have a feeling Castle and some of the site mods had a large number of items in their Inbox this morning.

One easy way to reduce gaps in site mod availability would be to take on an additional mod team member somewhere in ASPAC. There may be mods there already but site wide, I’ve subjectively seen quicker mod response in the US and UK/Euro daytime hours and as big as HF has become, I don’t think it would be too hard to find another

 

[bigshot]

The admin team at Head-Fi have seemingly expressed no interest in our forum. I think it needs to be someone who follows this forum like Castle. It's hard to drop into a back and forth that goes back multiple pages and know what's going on. And as I said before, I think there needs to be recognition of how these things start so they can be nipped in the bud and we don't have to go through excruciating flurries of posts to finally get some moderation.

 

[gregorio]

Ok, I see, very strong opinions, and the scientific level here is not worthy of this contribution and its way higher than what this guy did, I understand, mea culpa.

Sorry, it seems my response came across as much harsher than I intended and as far as I’m concerned it’s really not a big deal if you don’t want to start a new thread and would like to discuss it in this one. Although it’s not up to me, it’s not my thread.

the definition of a "troll" here is by and large anyone who disagrees with the self-anointed few, and the term is particularly thrown around as the response when those self-anointed few say incredibly wrong things and are called out for it.

Yes, I’m sure “the definition of a troll here” would appear to be as you describe … to a troll! The actual definition of a troll here is very different. I’m sure most of us probably have a slightly different definition or a different threshold but for me personally:

“If someone makes a claim that’s appears to contradict the science but is not supported by reliable evidence. Then the claim is refuted with an explanation but is repeated anyway using nothing but pseudoscience, falsehoods, misrepresentations or fallacies, etc. It’s then explained/refuted yet again but the poster just persists in repeating the false claim, continuing well beyond the point where any rational adult would have either fact checked or comprehended the refutations/explanations. This IMHO is trolling.” - However, I can completely understand why you personally would want to misrepresent “the definition of a troll here”!

G

 

[bigshot]

The low level trolls are allowed to continually defy science and insert insults against the participants in this forum as a whole. They tread the line carefully and it ends up being "death by a thousand cuts". I think that someone who refuses to respect the scientific method, established science and proper testing procedures doesn't belong here. Their posts are always off topic and they contribute nothing but negativity to the discussions. They should gently but firmly shown to the door.

 

[Somafunk]

Not objecting to this but isn't it sad that a thread labelled "the corner pub" has to be dedicated to dealing with trolls to such an extent that ordinary content / chatter can't even be accommodated?

Having worked, and drank in a decent amount of Scottish pubs in my 30 years of legal drinking age you will eventually discover a troll amongst the crowd in any pub if you pay attention, some folk just get their kicks from stirring up crap so to speak, and are never happier than when they’re creating turmoil amongst a sociable atmosphere.

Fortunately once outed they get shown the door, in typical Scottish fashion.

This is the way

 

[sunjam]

I didn't read everything in the thread (I stuggled to keep up with the posts as the thread of very active and read the bare minimum) and reading this I wonder if I even know how bad the thread actually was. If it included the things listed above, I do understand castleofargh's actions much better.

Not sure if it was related to my recent open complaint letter or the efforts from you guys or because of some mysterious force, I am happy to see the thread re-surfaced again even it is closed now.

This allow all the members (who didn't join the discussion) and guests to understand more about the topic with the facts we all presented there.

@71 dB if you (or anyone) didn't read all the posts in the thread from the very beginning, I highly recommend you to do it at your free time. You would have a better understanding about what happened.

I learned a lot from various people there who contributed to the thread (especially, @71 dB, I really like the story you mentioned. I can feel your passion in having good music and your down to details thinking style in learning things related to Audiio Science as you asked a few interesting questions about the Brownian motion and pressure).

I just noticed this "Corner Pub" thread today and saw a lot of interesting comments about the thread I created. All the comments are very interesting. I am not going to reply (unless you really want me to). Feel free to express your opinion or ask me any questions if you want.

Cheers

 

[gregorio]

Thought I’d address the quotes below as it seems typical.

What's concerning to outsiders is the hostility on sound science to trolls, which is trolling.

Like others, I don’t really get that. How is being anti-troll “trolling”?

Sorry but yes the intent is noble but execution comes off hateful, demeaning, intimidating, and condescending.

That is just “playing the victim”, probably the most typical reaction employed by trolls when they’ve been called out. Coming to a science discussion forum and spouting pseudoscience and regurgitated marketing BS is obviously anti-science and very rude. However, in some cases it is not deliberate, they simply don’t realise they are spouting pseudoscience and marketing BS, they think it’s factual. So in response, we accept it as an inadvertent error but try to explain why it’s not factual and what the actual facts are. At which point they can just accept the explanation, fact check it and/or ask for further clarification. What they can’t do is just keep repeating that pseudoscience/falsehood even after several explanations because it is no longer inadvertent, it’s deliberately being very rude, “hateful, demeaning, intimidating and condescending” and they cannot be surprised if they get the same in return, as that’s what would happen in pretty much any community. Unless of course they’re an “Entitled Karen” in which case they can “play the victim” because they’re entitled to be rude, “hateful, demeaning, intimidating and condescending” but no one else is entitled to respond in kind!

G

 

[71 dB]

@71 dB if you (or anyone) didn't read all the posts in the thread from the very beginning, I highly recommend you to do it at your free time. You would have a better understanding about what happened.

Then again, this is about what happened in a thread on a discussion board. How important can it be for us to understand what happened? We have already established how whatever happened was against the rules of this discussion board.

I learned a lot from various people there who contributed to the thread (especially, @71 dB, I really like the story you mentioned. I can feel your passion in having good music and your down to details thinking style in learning things related to Audiio Science as you asked a few interesting questions about the Brownian motion and pressure).

Thanks for these friendly words! The Brownian motion stuff was certainly something new for me. In that sense the thread for all of its problems (which I didn't pay much attention to it seems) was educational for me.

 

[gregorio]

This allow all the members (who didn't join the discussion) and guests to understand more about the topic with the facts we all presented there.

That’s not true, is it! “We all” did not present the facts, you presented cherry-picked and misrepresented facts, along with numerous fallacies and falsehoods, which obviously is NOT presenting the facts, it’s presenting pseudoscience which can only achieve the opposite of helping people “to understand more”. It’s only the refutations of your pseudoscience that may help some people “to understand more”, hence why the thread was reinstated but locked, to stop you just endlessly repeating the same pseudoscience!

G

 

[droid23]

It's always the same thing everywhere on any topic.
Just by having an opinion or a feeling on something doesn't mean you A) understood it or B) you own it.

Then there is something like facts, and facts are a weird thing in its own. Why? Because highly likely other, mostly smarter people than yourself, established ways to test something, ways to falsify or to prove something in an internationally consented manner. This is called science, and all scientists and their work have to undergo a peer review process before their work is even made public (ok, in an ideal world).

So it comes to some people's minds, if they get confronted with facts, that these facts might be completely different from what they believed before. I understand, it's hard to swallow something like that, but well educated and open people appreciate it and think " ah, learned something new, now I'm smarter than before, well done." For underperforming ignorants on the other hand, their world view breaks down because they have this mindset that they are smart and know it all anyway... but in reality , they just get reminded that they're not and so, facts which differ from your view are the enemy and cannot be agreed upon. It's a mental blockade leading them to show uncivil behaviour.

But as always, facts and the truth don't take care of your feelings. Swallow it with respect and modesty.

I would suggest a big disclaimer in the Sound Science sub section that here facts are counting more than opinions and feelings.

 

[Joe Bloggs]

@sunjam I don't have time to respond to it (never mind that it is locked) but as the representative of a leading manufacturer of DAPs and DACs (HiBy Music) my not so humble opinion can be summarized as follows:

1. The video that you're questioning is right, you're wrong.
2. Any counterexamples you can offer are evidence of manufacturers (us included) giving up the fight against audiophiles (the customer's always right, after all) in despair and giving them what they want (sharp spike responses to bandlimited dirac delta input, when the fact that said dirac deltas ARE bandlimited should mean that the classic sinc output is correct) with obvious results (the stairsteps). (in select settings in our case) They asked for *ahem* unique reproduction, we delivered. That's absolutely not to say that correct reproduction is impossible; they are still the norm and the default on all our players and you'll see no stairsteps there.

Your later crayon drawing attempts to dismiss the fact that a waveform can only be at one position at any given time. The attempt to characterize dither is both a huge moving goalposts fallacy and and a massive failure to understand the fact that it actually improves reproduction accuracy, and the residual error after this improvement is the noise floor of the CD format, which nobody denies exists and has nothing to do with the original contention of your article.

I would greatly appreciate it if you would retract the posts linked above in light of the fact that they have things completely ass backwards in all respects.