[Wmcmanus]

Sov, I'm doing some A/B comparisons now but there is only one headphone jack on the Maestro, so I can't do rapid fire swapping of headphones. Still, there is clearly a comparison to be made. It's not an automatic, knee jerk reaction that this one (R10) is way better than that one (HD650/Zu), but I can say for sure that the R10 is preferable to my ears. What I happen to be listening to is the end of the 2nd disk of the deluxe editon of Elton John's GBYBR. The bonus tracks "Jack Rabbit" and "Screw You (Young Man Blues)". Both tracks have quick tempo changes, lots of background details, and solo instuments coming in and out, plus some interesting things happening in the bass region, kick drums and such. With the HD650/Zu, it all sounds great. No complaints, nice balanced, even presentation. Lots of air and nice seperation of instruments. Vocals right where you want them to be, not too froward, not laid back. But with the R10's, the intro on "Screw You..." eases in a little more gently, the tempo shifts are handled with more delicacy, the kick drums have more impact and decay, and now by comparison, the kick drums on the HD650/Zu seemed muddy (but it didn't at the time, only now by comparison). Then a horn comes in on the right, then up and over to the left with all kinds of air and presence. Was that there with the HD650/Zu? Don't know. If it was, I must have missed it. It didn't "hit me" like it does now. In general, there is more "life" and "action" in the mids, more refinement in the bass.

The R10's are better all around, but the comparison is much closer than I would have ever expected it to be. My guess is that what you and I hear is not all that different afterall. Most of my comments about the HD650/Zu on this thread were based on agile_one's comment that for the money, in his opinion, the HD650's would be his choice. From there, I sugested some other phones in the $500-ish range that might compete with the HD650's, and then it got on to a comparison to the R10's. I didn't think it would be a "fair fight" but with the Maestro it's close enough to at least have something to talk about, and definitely from a value standpoint.

 

[gsferrari]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud Sov....note that we are talking about the HD650s used with the Maestro. Not that I don't think the HD650s are great headphones but Wayne and I were making the comparison using the Maestro....and if the R-10s were not there for a head to head comparison a listener might decide to go no further than the Maestro/HD650s (which I only heard using the Silver Dragons but not the Zu Wayne was mentioning).

You are misunderstanding Sov's comment. In his opinion the HD-650 should have never been allowed to go into production - they sound that bad to his ears

 

[GoRedwings19]

Personally I love the sound of coloured headphones, much more musical and personal. Although I have never heard a maestro,stealth I am more than confident the r-10's would do well in a reasonable setup. Do you think the r-10
s would perform well in a more reasonable setup. The reason I ask is so that I know whether to keep the emp anniv. One headfier has told me it is a very good combo. Not as much detail as the singlepower amps but it has more lushness which I totally adore. Currently I am using the rs-1's with the emp anniv. I have been blown away by this combo. On a offchance I managed to get a r-10, What can I expect sonic wise compared to the rs-1's? Would there be a roll off the highs and a more expressive midrange?

I have heard a lot of headfiers complain about the bass response of the r-10's. While I am not a basshead every now and then I do like to listen to music with punchy and tight bass.

Any comments/impressions would be more than appreciated. Personally I have never heard the r-10. So to be honest I don't know what to expect.

 

[NeilPeart]

As much as I love the HD650 with the balanced Zu Mobius, they still cannot reproduce the midrange with the same magic that the R10 can when driven by amps like the SDS and Maestro. No amplification can change this fact. However, I have never heard bass reproduced as well as my HD650 with the balanced Zu Mobius, with any other headphone/amp combination. Honestly if I had the budget for the R10 and an SDS then I’m betting that would be one of my favorite combos – the midrange is just so magical and seductive. However there are other headphones that do things no other headphones can – this is the beauty of the $500+ range – each flavor offers special characteristics that no other headphone offers – at this level all the choices are totally subjective, IMO.

K1000 – soundstage and treble detail
L3000 – cohesive, balanced sound with nice attack
HP-1000 – bass detail and utter clarity throughout the spectrum
PS-1 – bass quantity and midrange clarity; the most slam I've ever heard in a headphone
HD650 – the most balanced headphone I've heard; it has a very cohesive sound with the most accurate bass I’ve heard when driven in balanced mode
HE90 – ayt999 recently acquired this ‘phone and I’ll be paying him a visit soon

MDR-R10 – a truly magical midrange and a sound that is just so damn fun and euphonic
Qualia 010 - I haven't heard this one yet
Omega II – something special about this ‘phone's soundstage and speed that I haven’t heard elsewhere (listen to Dire Strait's "Money for Nothing" to understand what I mean...)

All the above ‘phones are in more or less the same league IME; the keys are quality sources and synergous amplification. If I could afford it all of the above would have a place in my home (perhaps not the L3000, however).

 

[Wmcmanus]

I don't know the EMP Anniv. but I'm sure what you're experiencing with that amp and the RS-1's is excellent system synergy. I've not spent a lot of time with the RS-1's, but the little time that I have had with them has not left me overly impressed, but I think this also had to do with system synergy (and it just wasn't there with the Blockhead at the NY meet on October 03). The upper frequencies were really etchy and bothered me a lot to the point of almost being unlistenable. The next time I heard them with the same amp but a different source and different music, they were much more tame, but still not my cup of tea. In any case, I cannot comment in detail about the RS-1's because I don't know them well. I suspect that they would work much better for me with a mellow tube amp.

Whether the R10's would mate well with the EMP Anniv. is also a tough call to make because I don't know that amp, other than to say that I've yet to hear an amp that the R10's don't sound at least "good" with. Many people here talk about how amp sensitive the R10's are, and I think in the ultimate sense, that is true. In that with the right amp, they are truly magical. Yet, even with the "wrong" amp, they're pretty darned good. Unless, of course, all of the amps I've tried them with happen to ALL be well matched with the R10's (that's at least 10 amps in detail at home, and another 5 or more at meets, so it's highly unlikely that I'm randomly picking all of the amps that work best with the R10's). A more likely explanation is that the R10's just seem "right" to me relative to other dynamic headphones, and no matter what clothes I dress them, they're styling! Problem is that not everyone sees it this way, and a lot of folks will tell you that you need to amp the R10's just right, which is likely to mean spending just as much on the amp as the R10's themselves! My advice would be to try them at a meet if at all possbile and move them around from amp to amp (preferably with your own amp as well) to see what you think. If you love them as much as a lot of folks do, you can work your way up the amp chain as time and money permits.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbratrud Sov....note that we are talking about the HD650s used with the Maestro. Not that I don't think the HD650s are great headphones but Wayne and I were making the comparison using the Maestro....and if the R-10s were not there for a head to head comparison a listener might decide to go no further than the Maestro/HD650s (which I only heard using the Silver Dragons but not the Zu Wayne was mentioning).

I heard them with the Maestro also, and the Zu, and sorry guys but IMO the HD650 is nowhere close the R-10, nor any other headphone I have heard, out of the same setup.......period, that is my personal opinion.....for the sarcastic fellows I feel that is nothing wrong or right on a personal opinion, at the end is just that, we all hear differently.....and I know that many may like that sound, but if you compare both, the presentation is completely different, and the extension is completely different, and the level of details is completely different.....and the seduction the R-10 is capable of, is non comparable to any other setup I have heard to the date, not even mine after tweaking and re-tweaking it, and that I'm used to it for a long time now....the sound of the R-10 is completely unique and exclusive IMO...and the difference is not that subtle, at least for some kinds of music, if you play a guitar only or a piano only, maybe the differences are less noticeable, but playing The Dark Side of the Moon, they are completely different animals....


Guru, no need of jokes or sarcasms, this is not a secret that I did not like the HD650, if you like the HD650 and like the HD600/580 this is up to you, and good for you, be happy with them, man (just agree that we have nothing in common sound wise, period)..No hard feelings, and you are not "better or righter" than me, because you like them and I don't OK? And yes, it should go into production, of course, but for the ones who like that sound, that means nothing for the rest of us who doesn't. Just look around, the triports are still in production, the V600 are still in production, any headphone has its market, even the bad ones (and I'm not saying that the HD650 is a bad headphone, just that is not my cup of tea) But IMO Senns still have to do some homework for the rest of us who did not like their current flagships, they have nothing to offer us..

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik Yes! But you are always sitting in the same concert hall ... even when the recording is in open air (live) or in a studio or, or, or... this is the limit of the beautifull R10, just my two cents.... Best! Nicola

But if it's your favorite concert hall, some could care less.

All i'm saying is some prefer their headphones to make music, some prefer their headphones to present it. There's nothing wrong with either camp, i don't see what the point of all this is...

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik Guys I prefer when a person tells "I like that color in the R10" or "I love that kind of sound" and other things like that. I have too loved A LOT the R10, but I have no any problem to declare that today this is not the best headphones thinking to the best hi-fi sound reproduction. There are two cans first of them: Qualia 010 and Omega II and. (The Orpheus I do not know). Best! Nicola

But that's the thing. If it's all PERSONAL TASTE, how can any one headphone be THE BEST?

The Qualias and Omegas are better TO YOU. The R10s and 650s maybe better TO OTHERS.

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl Well, considering I listen almost exclusively to rock, I guess I have to disagree!

+1

Was listening to Zep's Physical Graffitti and Houses of the Holy on them yesterday. Phenomenal experience. Why the hell WOULDN'T they do well with rock music?

 

[GoRedwings19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus I don't know the EMP Anniv. but I'm sure what you're experiencing with that amp and the RS-1's is excellent system synergy. I've not spent a lot of time with the RS-1's, but the little time that I have had with them has not left me overly impressed, but I think this also had to do with system synergy (and it just wasn't there with the Blockhead at the NY meet on October 03). The upper frequencies were really etchy and bothered me a lot to the point of almost being unlistenable. The next time I heard them with the same amp but a different source and different music, they were much more tame, but still not my cup of tea. In any case, I cannot comment in detail about the RS-1's because I don't know them well. I suspect that they would work much better for me with a mellow tube amp. Whether the R10's would mate well with the EMP Anniv. is also a tough call to make because I don't know that amp, other than to say that I've yet to hear an amp that the R10's don't sound at least "good" with. Many people here talk about how amp sensitive the R10's are, and I think in the ultimate sense, that is true. In that with the right amp, they are truly magical. Yet, even with the "wrong" amp, they're pretty darned good. Unless, of course, all of the amps I've tried them with happen to ALL be well matched with the R10's (that's at least 10 amps in detail at home, and another 5 or more at meets, so it's highly unlikely that I'm randomly picking all of the amps that work best with the R10's). A more likely explanation is that the R10's just seem "right" to me relative to other dynamic headphones, and no matter what clothes I dress them, they're styling! Problem is that not everyone sees it this way, and a lot of folks will tell you that you need to amp the R10's just right, which is likely to mean spending just as much on the amp as the R10's themselves! My advice would be to try them at a meet if at all possbile and move them around from amp to amp (preferably with your own amp as well) to see what you think. If you love them as much as a lot of folks do, you can work your way up the amp chain as time and money permits.

I read your post with great interest. I love the emp anniv. I also love the rs-1's. I use emp's to tame the highs and at the same time sweeten up the midrange which I feel only tubes can. I know a lot of headfiers do not like the rs-1's but if they heard it in my system then maybe they might change their mind. neutral headphones don't work in my current system unless I use the grace amp. My hp-2's sound god awful with the emp anniv. but brilliant with the grace I think this has to do with headphone>amp synergy. I have noticed this since joining headfi. At the moment I can't make it to meets as I live in europe and there's not a lot of people with r-10's and emp anniv. at the moment. I think the most important factor is how it sounds to me in my system. Do you have any thoughts on this?

 

[dolifant]

Well, I use an EMP Anniversary with the R-10s and, as you know, it sounds great. Now I have not tried a Singlepower Supra. Anybody got one in Houston? I'll be there in a flash.

Now last night, for grins, I plugged the Senn650/Silver Dragons into a Gilmore V2/SE, right next to the R-10s so I could do quick switching. The V2/SE has 2 jacks.

I played Wood by Brian Bromberg....lots of bass, but also mids and highs, and great sounds when he hits the fingerboard of his upright bass, or does glissandi on the strings for effects. I played the same setions over again and again focusing on specific details.

The R-10s beat the Senn 650s in the immediacy of the performance. It feels like he is right next to you. The impact of him hitting the wood on the bass is sharper and more "realistic", whatever that means. More punch. Yes there was louder bass on the Senns, by a little. But there was every low note on the R-10s, well articulated, each note individually heard. Needless to say, when I play classical chamber music, more midrange and upper bass, the R-10s are just sublime. All the above is the way I hear it. Everybody's ears are different. We hear with our brain, so our perceptions are different.

The Senns are nice phones, and when I first got them thought I had died and gone to heaven. But now like the R-10s and its not just because I dpent so much money. If I didn't like 'em I would sell them. he real question is whether I'll get a Qualia010 too, maybe in a coupla years, when someone wants to unload his set....and we have the same size head, of course!

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolifant Well, I use an EMP Anniversary with the R-10s and, as you know, it sounds great. Now I have not tried a Singlepower Supra. Anybody got one in Houston? I'll be there in a flash. Now last night, for grins, I plugged the Senn650/Silver Dragons into a Gilmore V2/SE, right next to the R-10s so I could do quick switching. The V2/SE has 2 jacks. I played Wood by Brian Bromberg....lots of bass, but also mids and highs, and great sounds when he hits the fingerboard of his upright bass, or does glissandi on the strings for effects. I played the same setions over again and again focusing on specific details. The R-10s beat the Senn 650s in the immediacy of the performance. It feels like he is right next to you. The impact of him hitting the wood on the bass is sharper and more "realistic", whatever that means. More punch. Yes there was louder bass on the Senns, by a little. But there was every low note on the R-10s, well articulated, each note individually heard. Needless to say, when I play classical chamber music, more midrange and upper bass, the R-10s are just sublime. All the above is the way I hear it. Everybody's ears are different. We hear with our brain, so our perceptions are different. The Senns are nice phones, and when I first got them thought I had died and gone to heaven. But now like the R-10s and its not just because I dpent so much money. If I didn't like 'em I would sell them. he real question is whether I'll get a Qualia010 too, maybe in a coupla years, when someone wants to unload his set....and we have the same size head, of course!

I live in Oklahoma City and i have a Supra (voiced specifically for the R10s too). Care to make a really long drive?

I just drove down to Dallas for a concert and it was a 4 hour drive there and this is with 3 stops that lasted atleast a good 20 minutes total and my dad who doesn't get the car above 45mph. Houston to OKC would probably be 6 hours or so.

 

[Wmcmanus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoRedwings19 I read your post with great interest. I love the emp anniv. I also love the rs-1's. I use emp's to tame the highs and at the same time sweeten up the midrange which I feel only tubes can. I know a lot of headfiers do not like the rs-1's but if they heard it in my system then maybe they might change their mind.

I'm glad you said this because it is something I should have said. I suspect you are right because what I didn't like about the Blockhead (great amp with other headphones) and RS-1 (great headphones from what many people say) is the way they worked (or, rather, didn't work) together. IMO the RS-1's need to be tamed in the upper frequencies, and the Blockhead is about as fast and furious as a solid state amp can possibly get, and thus serves to further emphasize (rather than deemphasize) the upper registers of the RS-1's. I'm sure I'd like the RS-1's a lot more with a less expensive, but better matched, tube amp. I'm thinking micro ZOTL or RKV, or (I'm sure) the EMP Anniv.

Quote:

Neutral headphones don't work in my current system unless I use the grace amp. My hp-2's sound god awful with the emp anniv. but brilliant with the grace I think this has to do with headphone>amp synergy. I have noticed this since joining headfi.

I'm with you here too! The HP-2 tend to do better with quick solid state amps. I love them with the Sugden Headmaster but am ambivalent when I mate them with ZOTL or RKV because they've got all of the smoothness in the world (so they don't need tubes to tame them like the RS-1's do, IMO) but the HP-2's need quickness to give them punch. With most tube amps, the HP-2's tend to be "pleasant" to listen to but not alive enough to keep me interested. The same could be said (in an even more pronounced way) about the HD600's. Of course these are only my views based on my tastes, but this is what system matching is all about. And, come to think of it, I've never heard the HD600's sound better than they do with the Blockhead (a balanced pair of HD600's of course). This makes total sense to me because the HD600 tend to be a little sluggish (in my view and only in relation to other headphones, so no flames please), so the Blockhead's lightning speed and power brings out the quickness and weight that they lack with many other amps (particularly laid back tube amps such as the RKV which the HD600's are terrible with IMO).

Quote:

At the moment I can't make it to meets as I live in europe and there's not a lot of people with r-10's and emp anniv. at the moment. I think the most important factor is how it sounds to me in my system. Do you have any thoughts on this?

It's a shame you can't make it to a meet. Even if you could arrange a mini meet with an R10 owner, then you could bring your EMP Anniv. and do the comparisons yourself. There really is no substitute for what your ears tell you.

 

[gsferrari]

I agree about the HP1/HP2 needing a fast solid state amp to sound their best. They are almost sennheiser like...laid back and easy smooth...until you plug them into a Gilmore V2-BE (Bitchin Edition) like the one here on my table.

And OMG holy crap!! this headphone is making me redefine attack and decay. SR-60's try their darndest to hang with them but are hopelessly losing in the struggle for pure audio fidelity.

Honestly - SR-60's come pretty close for the price and they should be enough for the casual listener - as a good hifi headphone setup component - without going overboard.

I am falling in love with these HP1's here

 

[GoRedwings19]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsferrari I agree about the HP1/HP2 needing a fast solid state amp to sound their best. They are almost sennheiser like...laid back and easy smooth...until you plug them into a Gilmore V2-BE (Bitchin Edition) like the one here on my table. And OMG holy crap!! this headphone is making me redefine attack and decay. SR-60's try their darndest to hang with them but are hopelessly losing in the struggle for pure audio fidelity. Honestly - SR-60's come pretty close for the price and they should be enough for the casual listener - as a good hifi headphone setup component - without going overboard. I am falling in love with these HP1's here

R u selling your sr-60's I need some before christmas for my sisters present.