[Jorg]

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This is very interesting to me. I was told that the R-10 design never changed.

I think the design didn't change but the technology of producing it's drivers could improve.

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But was the bass efficiency actually changed?

He definately stated that the bass improved allaround.

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Although when using a special rain forest wood like Zelkovia, how much consistency can be achieved, compared to using man-made products?

I don't think it's because of the wood. I think that even changing to another type of wood can't lead to those differences that he discribed.

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When you consider that R10s are handmade it's quite obvious they all aren't going to be EXACTLY the same. It's the same way with handmade instruments (and even mass produced instruments in most cases). But with something like the R10s, that are so carefully crafted, i'm quite sure that some models will no doubt sound better than others.

It is not handmade - it's parts are just hand-assembled. Obviously it's diaphragm made of "natural fiber (bio-cellulose) produced by a bacteria called Acetobacter" is not handmade

 

[immtbiker]

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It is not handmade - it's parts are just hand-assembled. Obviously it's diaphragm made of "natural fiber (bio-cellulose) produced by a bacteria called Acetobacter" is not handmade

This is true. The wood cups are machine "concert hall" dremel-ed using a CAD design.

Here's a good link:

http://www.theme-gifts.com/sonymdrr1o.html

 

[Jorg]

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Originally Posted by immtbiker This is true. The wood cups are machine "concert hall" dremel-ed using a CAD design. Here's a good link: http://www.theme-gifts.com/sonymdrr1o.html

I'm sorry if I didn't explain my thougts right - I was talking about the drivers. I've used the same link to quote about drivers and I know that the cups are handmade, but I don't think it affects the sound a lot. Sorry for this misexplaining.

BTW looking forward your 100 hours impressions

 

[Jester]

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Originally Posted by dolifant Well, I use an EMP Anniversary with the R-10s and, as you know, it sounds great. Now I have not tried a Singlepower Supra. Anybody got one in Houston? I'll be there in a flash.

When we connect I will bring mine along.

 

[gsferrari]

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Originally Posted by Jorg It is not handmade - it's parts are just hand-assembled. Obviously it's diaphragm made of "natural fiber (bio-cellulose) produced by a bacteria called Acetobacter" is not handmade

Maybe I dont wash my hands after...you know...

Plenty of bacteria to build me any driver I want

 

[immtbiker]

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Originally Posted by Jorg I'm sorry if I didn't explain my thougts right - I was talking about the drivers. I've used the same link to quote about drivers and I know that the cups are handmade, but I don't think it affects the sound a lot. Sorry for this misexplaining. BTW looking forward your 100 hours impressions

No Jorg, I was agreeing with you...saying you were right

. I don't think the cups are handmade...that kind of design must be computer driven, robotic (or machine) made.

110 hour impressions coming up!

 

[dolifant]

After more listening and thought about the R-10s:

1. The R-10s are so sharp in their reproduction of treble and mids, that perhaps the bass doesn't sound as prominent in comparison. I noticed, I had to turn the volume down 2-3 clicks lower than the Senn650s for a predominantly mid treble music such as the Haydn Piano Trios, but only down 1 click for predominant bass music, like Wood, or Superbass II. The one click represents the different sensitivities of the cans, the R-10 slightly more sensitive than the 650s. I don't think the bass is actually lacking, but is somewhat overshadowed by the R-10s mids and treble. Pick a bass dominated work and you do hear the bass, all well presented.

2. I would characterize the 650 sound as soft edged, like when you blur the edges on a photo image with photoshop as opposed to edge enhancement techniques. With the R-10s, the individual sounds are more sharply demarcated and seperated from each other. With the 650s there is a great blending of sound. I suspect those who like a laid back blended sound will prefer the 650s. If you like to concentrate on the individual sounds, kind of deconstructing the music as you listen you will be amazed at the R-10s ability to do so. The ability of the R-10s to reproduce sybillant sounds like cymbals, the moving of fingers on strings, the clink of glasses at a live recording, and the decay of sounds is excellent. The WOW is there. To me the 650s doesn't have that wow. They are nice, well mannered, and pleasant, but no WOW.

This is just my opinion. Everyone pick his own poison.

 

[Hirsch]

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Originally Posted by Wmcmanus Hirsch, I remember reading your reviews and other detailed comments about the HP-1000/ZOTL combo, and also remember nodding along with you as I read, in full agreement. Maybe my memory of the HP-2/ZOTL combo is getting rusty because I haven't cranked up that rig in a long time. You also make a good point about tube rolling, which is something I never did with the ZOTL, so I've never heard it in it's full glory like you have. I'll have to give it another listen.

The stock tubes my ZOTL came with were JAN-Philips 12AT7's and JAN-Philips 6SN7GTB's. These tube produce a glossy smoothness that was ultimately boring as a headphone amp can be. I never did find a GTB that I really liked in the ZOTL (The Tung Sol was closest). Sylvania or Ken-Rad VT-231's as output tubes give that amp an entirely different level of clarity and dynamics. I liked the Syl 12AT7WA as input. Inexpensive tube that IMO far outperformed its price point.

As far as the R10 goes, when Sony discontinued it I bought a second one "just in case". It's the only headphone I won't do without. If the Qualia lives up to advance hype when I eventually have one here, I may sell one of the R10's...but not both. My journey to R10 happiness was a long one, if you can sort through the volumes of my past posts. Mikhail's amps finally got the R10 to the level of performance I thought it was capable of. I had only heard bits and pieces of the R10's capabilities before I got my first Supra.

 

[Jorg]

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Originally Posted by immtbiker No Jorg, I was agreeing with you...saying you were right . I don't think the cups are handmade...that kind of design must be computer driven, robotic (or machine) made. 110 hour impressions coming up!

I think I've read somewhere here that it's handmade

I'm not sure...

In that link it is said that "engineers used the FRESDAM (Freeform Shape Design and Manufacture) computer-aided design system" to design the housing, but I can't find any information if it's hand or machine-crafted.

 

[gsferrari]

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Originally Posted by dolifant the R-10 slightly more sensitive than the 650s. I don't think the bass is actually lacking, but is somewhat overshadowed by the R-10s mids and treble. Pick a bass dominated work and you do hear the bass, all well presented

I guess this is why the "source" becomes so important at this level. More so than the amp itself !

There is definitely a reason why Ray Samuels and Mikhail use top of the line Meridian sources...they arent foolish. The Meridian 508/588 (the only ones that I have heard) are UNBELIEVABLE in smoothness, liquidity and gel really well with the R10 regardless of the amp.

All this is from my experience.

Meridian -> Stealth -> R10 is an amazing setup
Meridian -> Maestro -> R10 is equally brilliant
Meridian -> CMOY -> R10 will be right up there

well...not really but you get the picture

 

[WulfmanJax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dolifant After more listening and thought about the R-10s: 1. The R-10s are so sharp in their reproduction of treble and mids, that perhaps the bass doesn't sound as prominent in comparison. I noticed, I had to turn the volume down 2-3 clicks lower than the Senn650s for a predominantly mid treble music such as the Haydn Piano Trios, but only down 1 click for predominant bass music, like Wood, or Superbass II. The one click represents the different sensitivities of the cans, the R-10 slightly more sensitive than the 650s. I don't think the bass is actually lacking, but is somewhat overshadowed by the R-10s mids and treble. Pick a bass dominated work and you do hear the bass, all well presented. 2. I would characterize the 650 sound as soft edged, like when you blur the edges on a photo image with photoshop as opposed to edge enhancement techniques. With the R-10s, the individual sounds are more sharply demarcated and seperated from each other. With the 650s there is a great blending of sound. I suspect those who like a laid back blended sound will prefer the 650s. If you like to concentrate on the individual sounds, kind of deconstructing the music as you listen you will be amazed at the R-10s ability to do so. The ability of the R-10s to reproduce sybillant sounds like cymbals, the moving of fingers on strings, the clink of glasses at a live recording, and the decay of sounds is excellent. The WOW is there. To me the 650s doesn't have that wow. They are nice, well mannered, and pleasant, but no WOW. This is just my opinion. Everyone pick his own poison.

And when you consider i'm a left brained deconstructionist at heart, it's just another reason the R10s were my "dream" cans.

 

[Canman]

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Originally Posted by Jorg I know a guy in Novosibirsk that owns two R10's one is 1990 year production and the other is 2002 year production. He says that there is a large difference between them, especially in the bass department. He says that the 2002 year model is far superior to the 1990 year model. Can't check by myself because it's pretty far from Moscow. But I hope you guys can do it at a meet.

Interestingly, now that I have taken a good listen to the later production R10, I can tell you that there is a quite a difference. All of my previous impressions are with 2 very early model R10s. I went to the NY meet this weekend hoping that the Qualia was similar to the R10 but with better bass response and I ended up falling for the sound of the newer production R10.

The difference is most apparent in the bass response. I have always thought that the R10 would be ideal if it had decent midbass dynamics. Well apparently it does bass just fine! The newer R10 seems easier to drive and gives a more authoritative sound.

The earlier production R10 has the same midrange magic and refinement, but it is not as much fun to listen to and less ideal as an all around can for me. I think this explains some disparity in opinion on this can especially in regards to the bass.

 

[greenhorn]

Are there many other cans which sound different depending on the year of fabrication?

 

[markl]

Owning a circa 1991 vintage pair of R10s, and having briefly owned a circa 1999 pair (had to give it back, don't ask, a LOOOONG story), IMO, there is no difference between them. IMO, the differences Canman experienced were due to the differences in the equipment they were attached to, or the difference between his impressions in a different environment under different conditions at different times, his impressions were separated by a while in time, so he's working off memory as a person whose experience with them is down to a few brief encounters. If not, Canman, please correct me.

The R10s are great, and the same no matter what vintage they are (IMHO).

 

[mbratrud]

I don't know Mark, I had my new R-10s shipped directly to Mikhail for him to use in the voicing of the Maestro I was having him build. He told me when he shipped them to me that they sounded better than his older pair. I have no idea how he compared the two (if he ued different equipment) but I assume he is relatively familiar with the R-10s.

I could not say personally however.