[castleofargh]

Hi guys

My setup , NWZ - A15 + Sony XBA Z5 ( forza Audioworks hybrid iem upgrade cable) , i thinking about buy fiio a12a special version for iem , i would get advise from You guys about fiio compability with a15 4 ohm output impedance . Much appreciate

it doesn't matter one bit and you can plug into it whatever you want.

we never wonder about the impedance to connect a source to a DAC, or a DAC to an amp. because there is no reason why they would use crap values(sure they could, but why?). so we avoid being face to face with strange stuff like a 22ohm ak100 trying to drive a 8ohm IEM ...
 
do you know the output impedance of the A12A? I couldn't find it.

 

[giovvanie]

it doesn't matter one bit and you can plug into it whatever you want. :wink_face:
we never wonder about the impedance to connect a source to a DAC, or a DAC to an amp. because there is no reason why they would use crap values(sure they could, but why?). so we avoid being face to face with strange stuff like a 22ohm ak100 trying to drive a 8ohm IEM ...

do you know the output impedance of the A12A? I couldn't find it.

i agree with you and thanks for your advise I also couldn't find output impedance for this dac A15 drive my xba very well 18 of 30 volume scale is far enough sound volume for me , but I would just know fiio dac can bring more improvements for sq with a15 ( I'm very happy from a15 sq in comparison to my iPhone 5s is more detailed when dsee hx is turned on , wider soundstage , more out of head , and what I found after 3 days usage definitely better stereo separation and controlled bass , much better controlled bass )so if I can get more details what dac can improve from a15 in comparison with stock sq from you guys I'll be then happy

 

[god-bluff]

What confuese me about the obsession with low impedance outputs is not so long ago (well 10 years, doesn't time fly) a 120 ohm impedance was recommended for tamimg various Beyerdynamic headphones. Even 32 ohm ones especially DT860. I never got a chance to try this on those phones as I couldn't find an adaptor so can't say if it worked. What's changed in the intervening years ?

 

[castleofargh]

What confuese me about the obsession with low impedance outputs is not so long ago (well 10 years, doesn't time fly) a 120 ohm impedance was recommended for tamimg various Beyerdynamic headphones. Even 32 ohm ones especially DT860. I never got a chance to try this on those phones as I couldn't find an adaptor so can't say if it worked. What's changed in the intervening years ?

well there is audiophile recomendations, that are about the tastes of some altered sounds obtained through whatever weird means available (as long as it's not EQ apparently).  and then there is the reality of electricity. 2 very different things.
an amp generates power, if the load(headphone) is too low, the current passes right through it and comes back to the amp. not enough energy was used, and the amp has to get rid of the rest (mostly with heat). some can stomach it fine, some can't. and for a few amps, using a 8ohm IEM is almost like shorting the amp with a wire. even if you're not into electricity, you must know that's not something many products enjoy for a long time. but what's a wire if not just a headphone with a really low impedance ^_^?
you see you can't push a logic too far. some trespassing of the general rules are ok, but all in moderation. just adding a resistor between the amp and the headphone is another thing as the resistor will indeed resist and waste some energy.
on the headphone's side, well it's hard to make a global claim, but most of the time a good damping does get the lowest distortion and best control of the driver's membrane.
 
now to come back to the A10, with 4ohm that's basically recommended for 32ohm and above headphones . obviously that's something we say for all purpose at all loudness and it's just an approximation. the A10 works just fine with some of my 20ish ohm IEMs and even with my 16ohm IE80(somehow I don't like it loud on the sony).
but I can bet 10000000000000$(me right now being a little short of about 9999999999650$)that the A10 measures better plugged to 50ohm than plugged to 8ohm.
because science!
 
 in audio, in my opinion, people don't blow gears up all the time for 3reasons:
-most products don't use that high of a power.
-manufacturers often protect their stuff a little just in case.
-someone thought it up not to let power plugs have the same shape as jack plugs. else we would see a lot of "but it fits!" on audio forums

.

 

[Basstion]

 
do you know the output impedance of the A12A? I couldn't find it.

 
0.3 Ω, for both the E12 and E12A, according Fiio.

 

[SilverEars]

  well there is audiophile recomendations, that are about the tastes of some altered sounds obtained through whatever weird means available (as long as it's not EQ apparently).  and then there is the reality of electricity. 2 very different things.
an amp generates power, if the load(headphone) is too low, the current passes right through it and comes back to the amp. not enough energy was used, and the amp has to get rid of the rest (mostly with heat). some can stomach it fine, some can't. and for a few amps, using a 8ohm IEM is almost like shorting the amp with a wire. even if you're not into electricity, you must know that's not something many products enjoy for a long time. but what's a wire if not just a headphone with a really low impedance ^_^?
you see you can't push a logic too far. some trespassing of the general rules are ok, but all in moderation. just adding a resistor between the amp and the headphone is another thing as the resistor will indeed resist and waste some energy.
on the headphone's side, well it's hard to make a global claim, but most of the time a good damping does get the lowest distortion and best control of the driver's membrane.
 
now to come back to the A10, with 4ohm that's basically recommended for 32ohm and above headphones . obviously that's something we say for all purpose at all loudness and it's just an approximation. the A10 works just fine with some of my 20ish ohm IEMs and even with my 16ohm IE80(somehow I don't like it loud on the sony).
but I can bet 10000000000000$(me right now being a little short of about 9999999999650$)that the A10 measures better plugged to 50ohm than plugged to 8ohm.
because science!
 
 in audio, in my opinion, people don't blow gears up all the time for 3reasons:
-most products don't use that high of a power.
-manufacturers often protect their stuff a little just in case.
-someone thought it up not to let power plugs have the same shape as jack plugs. else we would see a lot of "but it fits!" on audio forums

.

Some misconceptions here.  Headphones as load draws current.  There is no left over current that comes back.  The amp has a source impedance that will dessipate as heat.   It's the impedance(the real part, the resistance) that uses up the energy.  
 
If you are going to explain something, try to have some understanding of it.  No offense.
 
As far as the adapter, it would change the FR based on how the adapter interacts with the impedance response of the phone.  Science is still there, and what the listener hears is what he hears.  

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Some misconceptions here.  Headphones as load draws current.  There is no left over current that comes back.  The amp has a source impedance that will dessipate as heat.   It's the impedance(the real part, the resistance) that uses up the energy.  
 
If you are going to explain something, try to have some understanding of it.  No offense.
 
As far as the adapter, it would change the FR based on how the adapter interacts with the impedance response of the phone.  Science is still there, and what the listener hears is what he hears.  

You can't say something as aggressive and frankly a tad rude as try to have some understanding, and then say no offense. That strikes me as a little harsh and I think castleofargh tries hard to be a contributor and is always polite.

 

[castleofargh]

 

  Some misconceptions here.  Headphones as load draws current.  There is no left over current that comes back.  The amp has a source impedance that will dessipate as heat.   It's the impedance(the real part, the resistance) that uses up the energy.  
 
If you are going to explain something, try to have some understanding of it.  No offense.
 
As far as the adapter, it would change the FR based on how the adapter interacts with the impedance response of the phone.  Science is still there, and what the listener hears is what he hears.  

You can't say something as aggressive and frankly a tad rude as try to have some understanding, and then say no offense. That strikes me as a little harsh and I think castleofargh tries hard to be a contributor and is always polite.

it's ok, he's not wrong on principle. I just have already spent a few pages trying to point out a few stuff, but I see that it doesn't talk to many people, so I do end up making caricatured explanation for the sake of trying to be understood(the eternal problem of trying to explain things without just being boring and overly complicated).
the same way when I talked about the IEM changing signature, I did the calculation with basic direct current laws, not with AC ones. so my stuff are aproximations(very ok ones, but still).
if I was posting in the sound science section I wouldn't dare to take such liberties or I would warn in advance, but as the result still relates to a reality in practice, I abuse a few ideas here to go to result in less than 20pages ^_^.
 
now I don't think what I said was really wrong, with a low impedance load there will be more current drawn from the amplifier(if it can provide it), and with an amp with high impedance like a 120ohm amp for a 32ohm headphone as in godbluff example, it will indeed be in the amp that a good deal of the energy will have to be dissipated one way or another. so my conclusions and my courageous bet(or not) still stand.

 

 

[gerelmx1986]

Hi guys

My setup , NWZ - A15 + Sony XBA Z5 ( forza Audioworks hybrid iem upgrade cable) , i thinking about buy fiio a12a special version for iem , i would get advise from You guys about fiio compability with a15 4 ohm output impedance . Much appreciate

Cool setup love it

 

[The Walrus]

Yess, ladies and gentlemen, my FiiO L5 LOD broke down after 2 weeks!  

 There is something wrong with the WM port end. My best bet is that the culprit is the strain on the cable that thick. 
My advice, buy the 30 cm long reasonably thick alternative on eBay instead.  

 

[god-bluff]

   
If they come from different sources / different masters, the test is inherently invalid. You should always test one parameter per test. That's why I suggested down sampling. That case at least you are testing 24 bit vs. 16 bit.  Now you hear those differences not because the file is  high-def, but because it is a  different master. 

A feature of the the A15 is that you can actually test 24 bit v 16 bit on the player by using the DSEE HX feature (with all sound effects off). At least I believe this is the case, correct me if I'm wrong.This downsamples the Hi Res files. My hearing is maybe not perfect but I think I hear subtle differences.
 
With DSEE set to off listening to Hi Res download of Kate Bush 50 Words for Snow (a huge wav file) everything just sounds just a little clearer, airier and more separated/better placed. The tiny details on the very edge of the sound stage can be heard just a little bit clearer. The piano tone more realistic and the sound decay on individual notes is longer. Less sibilance to the vocals. Just a little 'nicer'
 
Or I might just be trying to convince myself or imagining it. 

 

[god-bluff]

  Yess, ladies and gentlemen, my FiiO L5 LOD broke down after 2 weeks!  

 There is something wrong with the WM port end. My best bet is that the culprit is the strain on the cable that thick. 
My advice, buy the 30 cm long reasonably thick alternative on eBay instead.  

Just get a nice 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable (infinite number and lengths t choose from) and use the H/O. Line out a waste of time.

 

[The Walrus]

  A feature of the the A15 is that you can actually test 24 bit v 16 bit on the player by using the DSEE HX feature (with all sound effects off). At least I believe this is the case, correct me if I'm wrong.This downsamples the Hi Res files. My hearing is maybe not perfect but I think I hear subtle differences.
 
With DSEE set to off listening to Hi Res download of Kate Bush 50 Words for Snow (a huge wav file) everything just sounds just a little clearer, airier and more separated/better placed. The tiny details on the very edge of the sound stage can be heard just a little bit clearer. The piano tone more realistic and the sound decay on individual notes is longer. Less sibilance to the vocals. Just a little 'nicer'
 
Or I might just be trying to convince myself or imagining it. 

I don't think you are trying to convince yourself. I guess the question is how accurate the DSEE down-sampling is. Using the correct dither, etc. would be better for testing in my opinion. Also, DSEE down-samples on-the-fly. Whether these differences matter I don't really have an answer. That's for the big guys to answer 

 

[god-bluff]

  Just get a nice 3.5mm to 3.5mm cable (infinite number and lengths t choose from) and use the H/O. Line out a waste of time.

Having said that I've use an L3 with my iPod for years. Seems much higher quality, gold plated and locks into place with buttons to release it. Only decent Fiio product I've experienced (although their rubber bands are also quite good)

 

[castleofargh]

 

   
If they come from different sources / different masters, the test is inherently invalid. You should always test one parameter per test. That's why I suggested down sampling. That case at least you are testing 24 bit vs. 16 bit.  Now you hear those differences not because the file is  high-def, but because it is a  different master. 

A feature of the the A15 is that you can actually test 24 bit v 16 bit on the player by using the DSEE HX feature (with all sound effects off). At least I believe this is the case, correct me if I'm wrong.This downsamples the Hi Res files. My hearing is maybe not perfect but I think I hear subtle differences.
 
With DSEE set to off listening to Hi Res download of Kate Bush 50 Words for Snow (a huge wav file) everything just sounds just a little clearer, airier and more separated/better placed. The tiny details on the very edge of the sound stage can be heard just a little bit clearer. The piano tone more realistic and the sound decay on individual notes is longer. Less sibilance to the vocals. Just a little 'nicer'
 
Or I might just be trying to convince myself or imagining it. 

it's the "hi-res audio effect" option that downsamples hires files. not dsee(DSEE is a monster on it's own with it's own integrated DSP and it upsamples to be able to add the ultrasound uselessness and a few other stuff. not downsample^_^). and as you say to get a fair test, you need to make sure every single other DSP is OFF. even the dynamic normalizer.
 
now with the hi-res audio effect setting(and everything else off), downsampling doesn't have to mean it turns into 16bit. as the name suggests, it should be lowering the sample rate(not bit rate). they mention going back to CD quality, so maybe they also turn to 16bit, but it would be good to verify(as I use mp3 on my DAP I'm obviously not too concerned myself with highres questions) .
 
anyway, all this, and as suggested, the fact that it is done on the fly, that makes a few possible problems for something that should be a resolution test.
 
I suggest getting a 24/96 converted to 16/44 and then use the abx component for foobar(if pc) that would make for a better testing method IMO.