[Mython]

   
I think your analyst is way off and is thinking from the last era.  As Apple has proven - it's much better to grab a small piece but the most lucrative and profitable part of the pie, rather than fight for the biggest share but the no profit part

 
 
That's cool - I respect your differing viewpoint.
 
But I'm not talking about "no profit".
 
Do you really believe Sony were struggling to make a healthy profit with the ZX1?
 
ZX2 doesn't need to be any more expensive than the ZX1, for Sony to make a fair profit.
 

   
Sony's aiming for that lucrative part here, and they are probably expecting the bottom feed is going to be mopped up by Chinese OEMs once the market grows bigger and attractive.  They've also learnt that lesson the very hard way with their mobile division with Android, or actually the past decade with their electronics when they lowered the TVs to match the Koreans and lost.

 
The $600-$700 I proposed is hardly 'bottom feed'.
 
 

   
There's that saying that only a fool would repeat the same experiment expecting the same results.  Sony's messed up enough in the past under Stringer in which they were going for marketshare and sacrificing quality enough times that they are now in the red, and they aren't going to try the same thing this time.  Their direction is actually the correct one here, the ZX2 might be just testing the waters to see what the ceiling is for the market they are shooting for.  

 
 
I never said anything whatsoever about sacrificing quality, in this ZX2 discussion.
 
I agree that Sony should not sacrifice quality. I have witnessed Bosch sacrifice quality, in their power tools division, the past few years, and their reputation has suffered badly because of it, and rightly-so.
 
Sony do not need to sacrifice quality in order to make a profit at a reasonable retail price. Greedily maximising profit margins, for the benefit of the company, at the expense of the customers, is, perversely, at the longterm expense of the company, too. It's just that it may take a few years for the results of poisonous business practice to manifest themselves tangibly. It's somewhat analogous to modern farming practice, where farmers seek to maximise profit from the land, by greedily extracting every last ounce of yield from the soil, without giving any thought to the natural balance that the land requires. It is highly-profitable, short-term, so it seems to be the most successful way of doing business, but eventually the approach will crash, catastrophically. This approach began by 'testing the waters', too, and very soon we will witness a global catastrophe in food production.
 
 
There is a middle-ground of profitability which is where I am suggesting Sony should be aiming their DAP efforts. Sony have a huge manufacturing and resources advantage over smaller boutique DAP makers, but in focusing too much attention on enlarging their profit margins, they're overlooking a potentially greater level of success in the DAP marketplace. My point is that Sony is capable of producing a top-quality DAP at a cheaper manufacturing cost than some of their competitors, whilst selling it at a slightly higher price, thus achieving a bigger profit than those disadvantaged smaller competitors, but still selling in decent numbers because of not being too greedy.

 

[nanaholic]

There is a middle-ground of profitability which is where I am suggesting Sony should be aiming their DAP efforts. 

 
They've already tried that for years (F series, Z series etc), it didn't do them any good where they lost the entire world market to Apple, except in Japan.  They came out with the ZX1 and everyone suddenly got interested in Sony again.  I think that's more than enough proof that Sony's approach is working.
 
The high end DAP market is NOT a rational market - it's like sports cars.  Making them "reasonable" doesn't sell them nor get them the buzz they need, people don't give up buying a Ferrari because there are Subarus that goes just as fast.  There's no middle ground to be had here, again, Sony's been there for the last decade and they almost ran their brand to the ground.  There was a time when Sony was know for their high quality TVs, then they tried to compete on price with the Koreans and they screwed up major, that's historic fact and not an opinion.  Right now Sony is trying to build a premium brand name again.  iRiver managed it just fine with AK, Sony's not exactly trending unknown territory nor employing unproven tactic here.

 

[Spamateur]

I know someone alluded to this before, but sadly in this hobby there's the perception that the more expensive something is, the better sound it has, even though that doesn't typically hold true for anything but headphones. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony saw the need to be seen as a serious player in hifi DAPs after the ZX1 was greeted with lukewarm reviews (even though they sold a lot of them here judging by how many I see in the For Sale threads these days). I'm guessing their pricing decision was partly for the perception of quality and being a player in the TOTL DAP world. I wonder if they were concerned they wouldn't be taken seriously unless their pricing was on par with A&K, etc.

 

[radabz]

There's a lot of if's, but's and maybe's about what sony are doing, the simple fact of the matter seems to be that they have got the quality right on this product.
 
The few people who have heard this (and at least 1 who has the AK240 as well) have said it sounds better than all their other existing kit.
 
Some people want the best that they can get for the money right now and it seems like this fits the bill.
 
So if you have the money and you are happy to take the chance with the reviews (or even better if you can go listen to it), and it fits in with what you can afford, then buy it. If you can't afford it or justify the outlay then why moan about it.
 
Start up a thread called "Sony are having a laugh" or something like that but don't moan about a product you haven't heard yet.
 
We all know you pay a premium for that top percentage in audio quality, that's just the way it is I'm afraid.

 

[Mython]

   
They've already tried that for years (F series, Z series etc), it didn't do them any good where they lost the entire world market to Apple, except in Japan.  They came out with the ZX1 and everyone suddenly got interested in Sony again.  I think that's more than enough proof that Sony's approach is working.

 
Sony went into decline by making lacklustre products, not because they 'weren't charging enough' for them. Apple beat them by substantially raising the bar for industrial design, and, as everyone knows, by co-branding the iPod with iTunes, for an extremely successful product ecosystem. Ironically, Apple did this without even owning any of the music rights, per se.
Sony, on the other hand, with extraordinary ineptness, do own massive music rights, yet they have, for years, failed to market both their music, and their associated DAP hardware in anything like as resourceful a manner as Apple's product ecosystem.
 
Producing isolated flagship products, at inflated prices, does not automatically rectify all of those competitive shortcomings, and, since you mention that the ZX1 suddenly got people interested in Sony again, I have stated on several occasions in this thread, that, IMO (and I am not alone), Sony let down their ZX1 customers by producing a so-called flagship audiophile device, for approx $750, which, at times, can produce a shockingly artificial sound quality, so I challenge the notion that Sony's approach is truly 'working'.
 
 
 
 
 

   
The high end DAP market is NOT a rational market - it's like sports cars.  Making them "reasonable" doesn't sell them nor get them the buzz they need, people don't give up buying a Ferrari because there are Subarus that goes just as fast.

 
 
 
Whilst it might be true that the high-end DAP market isn't an entirely rational market, that doesn't mean all of the DAP-buying public should just quietly suck-it-up without challenging the status quo.
 
If DAP companies get into the habit of routinely resorting to cheap tactics of overpricing their products, just to make people around the world gasp, get the bling-seekers wetting their underwear, and the inadequates reaching for their chequebooks in a misguided attempt to compensate for their perceived inadequacies, so they can 'be the ultimate', then it's a pretty sorry state of affairs and not a healthy situation.
 

  There's no middle ground to be had here, again, Sony's been there for the last decade and they almost ran their brand to the ground.  There was a time when Sony was know for their high quality TVs, then they tried to compete on price with the Koreans and they screwed up major, that's historic fact and not an opinion.  Right now Sony is trying to build a premium brand name again.  iRiver managed it just fine with AK, Sony's not exactly trending unknown territory nor employing unproven tactic here.

 
 
 

You seem to feel that I am making a case for Sony lowering their product quality down from TOTL, to middle-quality, but that isn't  what I'm saying.
 
I'm saying Sony have the resources to produce a TOTL quality product without resorting to excessive pricetags.
 
 
For example, let's say, hypothetically, I make a product at a net cost of $425 and I sell it for $1000, it doesn't magically make it higher quality than if I sell it at a smaller profit margin, more accessible to the general public, for, say, $700.
 
 
I don't mind paying a premium for a premium product.
 
Here's some things that I do mind, though:
 
1) Paying a premium price for a product which turns out to sound very much less than a premium product should (ZX1)
 
2) Being expected to pay an illegitimate premium ON TOP OF an already-premium price (I am referring to excessive the price-hike from ZX1 $750 to ZX2 $1200)
 
3) Being expected to pay $1200 for a DAP with a rediculously-meagre 15mw+15mw power output, when almost nothing else on the entire market, be it $29 or $2500 has such low output. Yes, it's efficient, but it's also selling customers short.
 
 

   
Right now Sony is trying to build a premium brand name again.

 
Then they would serve their brand, and their customers, much better by producing TOTL product at a fair price, rather than treating their customers as though they are too stupid to realise that a bit of goldplating and a few fancy capacitors do not cost $450 extra, to mass-produce.
 
It's transparently obvious.
 
 
A premium brand that will stand the test of time is not built purely upon price.
 
 

   
 iRiver managed it just fine with AK

 
So far. 
 
Just because they've managed to get away with it for all of 2 - 3 years does not mean such a money-grabbing business approach will stand the test of time.
 
 

 
 
 
 
 

  I know someone alluded to this before, but sadly in this hobby there's the perception that the more expensive something is, the better sound it has, even though that doesn't typically hold true for anything but headphones. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony saw the need to be seen as a serious player in hifi DAPs after the ZX1 was greeted with lukewarm reviews (even though they sold a lot of them here judging by how many I see in the For Sale threads these days). I'm guessing their pricing decision was partly for the perception of quality and being a player in the TOTL DAP world. I wonder if they were concerned they wouldn't be taken seriously unless their pricing was on par with A&K, etc.

 
Yes, sadly, you may be right.
 
A company with as great a heritage as Sony should have the integrity to realise that the integrity of their products is not seperate from the integrity of their business approach, and will shine-through without the need to resort to overpricing, to impress the small minority who are impressed by overpricing tactics.
 
 
.

 

[djricekcn]

the audio quality market isnt huge thus it needs to be higher priced to market in general. hell majority are satisfied with radio amfm quality

 

[Whitigir]

the audio quality market isnt huge thus it needs to be higher priced to market in general. hell majority are satisfied with radio amfm quality

Too true!! and how would you judge Zx2 over the ak240 ? Have you compared them both ?

 

[gerelmx1986]

the audio quality market isnt huge thus it needs to be higher priced to market in general. hell majority are satisfied with radio amfm quality

or even worse spotyfy, pandora sirusXM radio quality 32kbps to 320kbps, avg 192 kbps

 

[reginalb]

The price will likely remain high on this device. Mython, you talk about Sony as if it's one unit, but it's not. A company the size of Sony is divided into an enormous number of units. Even within their consumer electronics division, it's likely that the people making MP3 players don't talk to the people that make TVs. 
 
And the MP3 player is a sliver of a sliver of their business. Even at Apple, where MP3 players are a much larger share, it's becoming a niche product, and devices are being cut (iPod Classic) as sales tank. Every phone sold means one less of these things out the door. The only way that I see the business continuing for long at Sony, is if this tech starts to bleed in to phones, then the R&D might be useful. Sure, all of this is less true in Sony's home market of Japan, but even in a country that has a lingering obsession with flip phones, smartphones are more ubiquitous now than they were when Sony started producing MP3 players - and more popular than other types of phones.
 
This means that small businesses will dominate this market, and Sony's MP3 business will be run like a small business in some ways (but more lethargically, because they will still have to deal with the bureaucracy that comes with being Sony's size.) Pricing will likely keep reflecting that, inflated further by Sony, who still charges a premium for their brand name (even though the people most likely to still pay that premium are my grandmother's age, a naturally and quickly shrinking market). 
 
I still use an MP3 player mainly because my phone habits lead me to switching them out all the time, and some of them are still abysmal when it comes to audio quality. But my MP3 player, which remains a bit more constant than my phone, has to run Android. Music streaming services are up to 320k quality (indistinguishable from Red Book, which is indistinguishable from all the "high-res" formats for us humans, although my cat probably appreciates the extra range) and they sound great. So I've stopped dropping money on albums (except for the occasional vinyl, because I find my turntable to be fun) and started just subscribing to Google Play Music All Access.  In other words, even some of us Head-Fi members are starting to stray away from this shrinking market. 
 
Will the market still exist for years to come? Sure. But that doesn't mean it will remain profitable for large companies, and those that are in it will probably keep prices high, like it or not.

 

[johnston21]

Someone wants a Ferrari at the price of a Honda. Both go fast, but...

 

[AUDIOBREEDER]

Saw a video on you tube, where a Sony engineer was listening to MDR-Z7 with ZX2 connected to PHA-3.
Makes me think that ZX2 is underpowered, unless he was using the balanced cable.
Can someone who has the Z7, comment whether ZX2 can sufficiently power it with the regular 3.5mm jack cable.
I don't see the point in paying over $1000 if can't do so.

 

[djricekcn]

As T.R.A.N.C.E. has mentioned before, these are meant for IEM directlly and not exactly cans

 

[fiascogarcia]

   
Well, I was speaking a bit more broadly, with that remark, but nonetheless, I'll stand by it, in specific relation to the ZX2, because I do not believe that Sony can legitimately justify the magnitude of the price increase over the ZX1. Remember, the ZX1 was already a premium-margin product (not by A&K standards, but by general-market standards).
 
 
I'm not actually arguing against Sony enjoying profit. I'm saying that I feel they are going a bad way about making profit and they could make more profit over the product life-cycle by making less profit per-unit.
 
I'm also not suggesting that Sony should settle for a paper-thin profit, either.
 
I'm saying they could make a moderate profit per-unit, and benefit themselves and their customers with the net profit of the ZX2 venture, when all is said and done, to say nothing of also benefiting the uptake of their music division's offerings.
 
Joe & Joanne Public need a compelling reason to invest in Hi-Res. The ZX2 fails miserably to carry the Sony banner, in that regard, and if I was in a Sony board meeting, I'd be extremely red-faced that a flagship product unnecessarily shoots the company in the foot, just because of an impatient desire to grab as much short-term publicity and short-term profit as possible, with all other considerations being damned as a consequence.
 
 

I would guess that corporations like Sony have already done the market analysis.  They have probably already determined that there is a finite market for buyers of high end DAP's, as most of the population is satisfied and not easily enticed from using their phones for music.  That limits the market segment, and quantifies the price per unit that they have to achieve to reach their profit goals for that product division.  They have probably already determined that the user market will not expand until high res streaming is more prevalent,  and either inexpensive or free, at which point they (along with others) will integrate high res players into phones for the layperson's convenience.

 

[Mython]

Someone wants a Ferrari at the price of a Honda. Both go fast, but...

 
 
No, someone is simply saying a Honda with a 'go-faster' Ferrari bodykit, bigger fuel tank, and ECU remap is still, fundamentally, a Honda and therefore doesn't deserve to be priced much higher than an original Honda

 

[Whitigir]

No, someone is simply saying a Honda with a 'go-faster' Ferrari bodykit, bigger fuel tank, and ECU remap is still, fundamentally, a Honda and therefore doesn't deserve to be priced much higher than an original Honda :wink_face:

How about a cirrus logic DAC is still a Cirrus Logic DAC, it doesn't matter how your design the circuit and body, it still gonna be the Cirrus Logic ? And don't deserve to be priced as such 2400$ ? AK240 ?

Sony designed their own DAC-Amplifier combo for Christ sake....the same as Ferrari would design their own !

It isn't hard to smash technologies together and create your devices then call it your invention....vs invention......such as A&K...it is a real invention when you design everything by your own ! Period....that is Sony