[rutter]

It's called manufacturer and market accountability, warning others, or if it turns out to be a wrong impression refuting it. If there is true subjectivity exploring and substantiating it. You know, trying to clarify things. I can't believe some people are here just to socialize or relish the completely subjective impressions of others. As for 1W, I'm pretty sure TSAVAlan said he drove these at 1500mw within the past two to three pages with very good results. Ask him whether he rekt his hearing or the iems.

Anyway, I no longer have the ZX300. Doubt I'll have much to say with the Magni and A5. Still getting some decent detail which is kind of impressive. I need to get my hands on a serious dap and then I'll give the ier-z1r its decisive go. Hopefully the DX220 becomes available next week and I can pull the trigger.

 

[Sp12er3]

@rutter Good stuff hope your plan panned out well

Back on impressions tho, finally heard some impressions from Lachlan!

He's in Japan right now for Fujiya Avic, might want to hang there if anyone want to meet him.

On the IER-Z1R sound sig, I agree the easiest way to get an idea of how it sounds is to compare them to Sony's old guards.

 

[jmills8]

@rutter Good stuff hope your plan panned out well

Back on impressions tho, finally heard some impressions from Lachlan!

He's in Japan right now for Fujiya Avic, might want to hang there if anyone want to meet him.

On the IER-Z1R sound sig, I agree the easiest way to get an idea of how it sounds is to compare them to Sony's old guards.

Thats just first inpressions. First impressions are fun but not the whole picture.

 

[crinacle]

As for 1W, I'm pretty sure TSAVAlan said he drove these at 1500mw within the past two to three pages with very good results. Ask him whether he rekt his hearing or the iems.

At 1.5W, the IER-Z1R will be generating volumes around ~135dB (calculated under 103dB SPL/mW and 40 ohms @ 1kHz conditions). Calling that "loud" would be an understatement.

 

[nanaholic]

It's called manufacturer and market accountability, warning others, or if it turns out to be a wrong impression refuting it. If there is true subjectivity exploring and substantiating it. You know, trying to clarify things. I can't believe some people are here just to socialize or relish the completely subjective impressions of others. As for 1W, I'm pretty sure TSAVAlan said he drove these at 1500mw within the past two to three pages with very good results. Ask him whether he rekt his hearing or the iems.

Anyway, I no longer have the ZX300. Doubt I'll have much to say with the Magni and A5. Still getting some decent detail which is kind of impressive. I need to get my hands on a serious dap and then I'll give the ier-z1r its decisive go. Hopefully the DX220 becomes available next week and I can pull the trigger.

The power rating for these devices is MAXIMUM output power - when you connect a headphone and listen to them, the devices are almost NEVER at maximum power output, because there are these things call volume controls which is in every device so you won't blow out your ear drums (there are many ways to do this, but they all REDUCES the output power of the device the achieve control over loudness), so in actuality it doesn't matter if you are using a device which can output max 1.5W or 200mW - when you volume match them using the same headphone at the same loudness the output power at the device end is EXACTLY the same. If the Z1R needs 1mW to get 103dB loudness (as according to the spec), that means at the same 103dB volume the output device will be outputting 1mW, irrespective of what the MAXIMUM output the device is capable of (assuming they both can output more than 1mW). So maximum output power is only relevant to know how much headroom you have when it comes to these IEMs - which is only relevant in the sense that amps always has an optimal operation range like car engines have optimal power bands @ certain revs (100% output is usually never optimal, as amps operating at 100% capacity will nearly always have distortion, on the flip side you also don't want too little either).

So regardless of whether you are using a ZX300 or a DMP-Z1 or DX220, the important thing is not maximum power output, but the delivery of that power. In the case of the DMP-Z1 what is special is that its power delivery is carefully designed to be super clean and the volume attenuater is also an extremely high quality analogue component, compared to the digitally controlled volume of the Walkman which may introduce unwanted noise in the path, that's where the difference mainly lies, rather than the maximum power output the devices are capable of.

 

[rutter]

It's common knowledge on this forum that you can drive headphones to a sufficiently loud volume, to a deafening volume, but sound quality can vary based on power. There's an abundant reference to this. One example I can give is that I've driven a Sennheiser HD800S with a Jotunheim both single-ended and balanced. I had more than enough volume headroom single-ended but the sound was awful. There was a veritable cavity in the soundstage. Balanced corrected that and significantly improved sound quality. I'd anticipate you arguing balanced vs single-ended but pairing underpowered amps with headphones that need power and then driving them with amps that can provide proper power should demonstrate a difference. In fact, you'll find some people arguing all balanced outputs do is make more power available. For instance, the LCD-X single-ended vs balanced with the Jot demonstrated vastly less difference. I had plenty of headroom with the ZX300 but experienced a positive difference going to the A5. I've thought that power output varies based on volume and gain, have asked for clarification, but no one has dismissed power difference like you. People make the significance of power sound like common knowledge, and it is certainly common knowledge you can drive power hungry headphones sufficiently loudly through underpowered amps. Some manufacturers even recommend power output values rather than just referring to power quality. Both can be stated.

For anyone doubting the veracity of my claim, here's the quote:

More power generally helps out the hybrid IEMs with dynamic drivers. Buddies over at Empire Ears really like using the Mojo to give their hybrid IEMs more juice for a much more rocking low end. The IER-Z1R was super nice on the DMP-Z1 in balanced on 1500 mW.

TSAVAlan is actually explicit in stating that more power helps, which your claim states cannot happen at the same volume. It's pretty hilarious that while I was writing this he actually liked your post. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[TSAVAlan]

It's common knowledge on this forum that you can drive headphones to a sufficiently loud volume, to a deafening volume, but sound quality can vary based on power. There's an abundant reference to this. One example I can give is that I've driven a Sennheiser HD800S with a Jotunheim both single-ended and balanced. I had more than enough volume headroom single-ended but the sound was awful. There was a veritable cavity in the soundstage. Balanced corrected that and significantly improved sound quality. I'd anticipate you arguing balanced vs single-ended but pairing underpowered amps with headphones that need power and then driving them with amps that can provide proper power should demonstrate a difference. I had plenty of headroom with the ZX300 but experienced a positive difference going to the A5. I've thought that power output varies based on volume and gain, have asked for clarification, but no one has dismissed power difference like you. People make the significance of power sound like common knowledge, and it is certainly common knowledge you can drive power hungry headphones sufficiently loudly through underpowered amps. Some manufacturers even recommend power output values rather than just referring to power quality. Both can be stated.

For anyone doubting the veracity of my claim, here's the quote:



TSAVAlan is actually explicit in stating that more power helps, which your claim states cannot happen at the same volume. It's pretty hilarious that while I was writing this he actually liked your post. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To clarify, I was making a generalization about a dynamic driver benefiting from more power. My HE-6 on a speaker amp is rated 100w@8ohms but I am no way using the full power otherwise I would smoke them. And to give some perspective, I listen around 75~ db so I am well under using the full power output of the DMP-Z1.

 

[rutter]

To clarify, I was making a generalization about a dynamic driver benefiting from more power.

Which according to nanaholic can't happen.

so in actuality it doesn't matter if you are using a device which can output max 1.5W or 200mW - when you volume match them using the same headphone at the same loudness the output power at the device end is EXACTLY the same.

What he claims does make sense at face value, but goes strongly against a cornucopia of claims in this community regarding power. Claims and experiences.

 

[Goldfish memories]

The power rating for these devices is MAXIMUM output power - when you connect a headphone and listen to them, the devices are almost NEVER at maximum power output, because there are these things call volume controls which is in every device so you won't blow out your ear drums (there are many ways to do this, but they all REDUCES the output power of the device the achieve control over loudness), so in actuality it doesn't matter if you are using a device which can output max 1.5W or 200mW - when you volume match them using the same headphone at the same loudness the output power at the device end is EXACTLY the same. If the Z1R needs 1mW to get 103dB loudness (as according to the spec), that means at the same 103dB volume the output device will be outputting 1mW, irrespective of what the MAXIMUM output the device is capable of (assuming they both can output more than 1mW). So maximum output power is only relevant to know how much headroom you have when it comes to these IEMs - which is only relevant in the sense that amps always has an optimal operation range like car engines have optimal power bands @ certain revs (100% output is usually never optimal, as amps operating at 100% capacity will nearly always have distortion, on the flip side you also don't want too little either).

Not exactly true. Max power certainly does matter. You seem to have forgotten to take into account the volume peaks of a recording, especially for recordings with a large dynamic range like classic music. To have a life-like and distortion free reproduction, simply having enough power to reach the average sound level (103dB in your case) is not enough. Instead, you will need much more power, since to achieve best sound quality you need to reproduce these peaks without distortion. This is the exact reason why maximum power output DOES matter, even though, as you correctly state, no one actually listens at max volume (unless they want permanent hearing damage).

A case in point-- HD650. According to solderdude's calculations, for about 80db average levels you only need 0.2V (we're using volts here since hd650 are almost always voltage limited, not current limited), power even an iPhone can provide. Yet if you were to reproduce the 120dB peaks, you will need 24V, which is something the majority of amps cannot do. To quote solderdude, '120dB may seem a lot and painful but really isn't due to these peaks being very short and will just sound "dynamic".' So by your logic, as long as the iPhone can supply enough power to drive the cans to their average sound level, max power is then irrelevant, which as anyone who has owned a HD650 can tell you, is certainly NOT true.

 

[rutter]

And the thing about the HD650 is that it's very easy to drive in terms of volume and I'd actually say in general. It has the same sensitivity as the IER-Z1R- 103 db/mW. The impedance is much higher at 300 ohms vs 40 ohms but my impression was it's as easy to drive, in terms of volume and without completely butchering it, as the 20 ohm and 25 ohm Audeze LCD-X and Hifiman Edition X v2 at the same sensitivity, which are both expressly intended to be easy to drive. The recommended power level of the LCD-X is >250mW whereas on bhphotovideo I see a maximum power handling for the HD650 at 500mW, which I think is actually not easy to achieve at 300 ohms. The Sony daps output like 250mW at 16 ohms, which unless I'm mistaken means significantly less at the 40 ohms of the IER-Z1R. I don't know if Audeze have updated their site but I recall an optimal power level of 2W-4W recommended for all of their headphones. We'd need to go past resistance and sensitivity and consider the drivers. The significance of power is a very poorly explained aspect and clearly misunderstood. It remains inexplicable to me why I have had such an easy time driving the HD650. I can do it out of a laptop admirably and out of an iPod, the only thing that categorically failed was the single-ended output of the ZX300, but apparently that's abysmal. On the other hand, as has been mentioned in this thread twice now, the HD650 scales quite a bit apparently with amplifiers. I was kind of impressed by how it sounded with the ZX300 when paired with the Fiio A5.

200mw or 300mw ok for vocals, I prefer 500 and up mw with dynamic drivers.

Why?

 

[XERO1]

Just to be clear.

1.5W RMS + any IEM =

 

[rutter]

While I wait for the DX220 I'm sitting around listening on the Magni at high gain, which does have a maximum power output of around 1.5W at 40 ohms, and no more than 9 o'clock on the volume knob. My impression remains that power appreciably improves the presence of vocals, which is the major concern I would have with the z1r along with bass that hogs too much of the sound secondarily. If I end up being satisfied with vocals on the DX220 I think these are a keeper. Even with the Magni and my Asus Code XI motherboard I hear separation, some imaging, adequate space, and enjoyable bass. These iems are a contender for making some sense at the price range, superior to the Solaris to my ears. You can at least more readily say that you have yourself high quality headphones rather than mulling doubts over what you're really hearing. Engaging, technically considerable, basic level thumbs up if the midrange is fine. I'm looking forward to getting the DX220 with amp8 with whatever benefit there is to balanced and reasonable power. The ZX300 showed the necessity for a dap or higher priced dacs and amps despite throttling these without EQ. If the midrange gets fixed and with the benefits of proper gear I believe these will be iems you can recommend.

One thing I'm really curious about is what the WM1A and WM1Z are doing with these, and if they sound ok, why.

Very interesting observation, I just swapped to the HD650 staying on high gain with the Magni on my favorite song of the month,



and the IER-Z1R actually sounds more authoritative. This was unexpected for me. Bass is definitely better on the Z1R and vocals are competitive against the HD650, arguably better. Is the HD650 maybe not getting comparable power in context? I would actually prefer to listen on the Z1R instead of the HD650, which I don't think ever happened with the Solaris. The HD650 comes across kind of flat by comparison, and the soundstage isn't dwarfing the Z1R. I think the Z1R sounds clearer and more dynamic, snappier and stronger. This is no wine sound you fall asleep to. Starts to remind me of Focal, which can be very off-putting if overdone. Piercing.

I'm getting pretty torn. One of the reasons why the bass of the Z1R is better than that of the HD650 is its prominence relative to the rest of the sound. This is not helpful with possible deficiencies elsewhere. Turning up the volume is not easy. I think I went a little overboard in the previous paragraph. Vocals remain a question mark. The DX220 is already in stock and it has interesting EQ options so I'll see what I'd need to resort to in order to get satisfactory sound.

[merged]

 

[ahmedie]

I heard those at fujiya event, best bass out of IEM by miles, no where one is even closes, period. The only negative is they had this Sony relaxed signature which is boring for some....

 

[FastAndClean]

At 1.5W, the IER-Z1R will be generating volumes around ~135dB (calculated under 103dB SPL/mW and 40 ohms @ 1kHz conditions). Calling that "loud" would be an understatement.

if you put 1.5W on that ting you will have true burn in effect, you will believe in burn in after that when it start putting out smoke from the nozzle

 

[rutter]

I heard those at fujiya event, best bass out of IEM by miles, no where one is even closes, period. The only negative is they had this Sony relaxed signature which is boring for some....

I think this might depend on what you're listening through. Once you get past bass though things do get a little strange. Not only am I questioning the midrange, treble doesn't catch my attention.

if you put 1.5W on that ting you will have true burn in effect, you will believe in burn in after that when it start putting out smoke from the nozzle

I was getting a little antsy listening to asmr past 12 o'clock on high gain with the Magni. Can confirm no smoke detectors went off though.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

These laid-back/relaxed signature claims are weighing on my mind. Three separate people have made this claim recently, including a person on reddit claiming others he knows agree. I don't think something like this will come across as laid-back as it plays to the strength of these,



but I wonder if the tuning accounts for these claims. I'm not hearing any variation of a V shape, an L shape if anything. If you turn the volume down to contain the bass the whole thing may sound relaxed. Low gain and low power haven't changed that so far for me, high gain and high power is an assault on your ears as you try to squeeze the rest of the frequency range with volume knobs. Makes me shake my head.

Any ideas? I doubt the frequency graph explains this. What kind of bass-light screeching could they be listening to in East Asia to conceive of this signature? I'd like to hear it, bear witness to what abomination humans are capable of.