[Hirsch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller Are you talking of the HD600 or the CD3000? I have never heard that fabulous setup, you forgot to mention the CARDAS or EQUINOX cable also, right? but I strongly doubt that this will take out the veil, on the HD600 if is what you are trying to say.... OTOH Now, just for curiosity, hook in that same setup, the CD3000....my question now: what you get now?

Sorry. Cable was Clou Red.

If memory serves, that setup will give the HD-600 a very similar tonal balance to the CD3000 in a more neutral setup. Put the CD3000 into a ZOTL with that setup, and the high end will be hot enough to burn your ears. It's been awhile since I owned the ZOTL, and did a lot of tube experimenting. The headphones I used were the HD-600, HP-1 and CD-3000 (also W-100 at one point). I got to know the sounds of those three headphones (and how to alter them in the ZOTL) very well during that time. There are other variables that might have been in play as well...power cords and conditioners, transport, digital cable, the particular mods in my DI/O.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF It's not a consensus. A lot of people feel that way, but not nearly everyone. I would agree that with inferior amplification and the stock cables, they do at times sound "veiled" (if that's the right word). However, with cables that let them do their thing and a good amp, I feel that the HD 600 are anything but "veiled." Different people have different preferences when it comes to treble, it's as simple as that. (Please, let's avoid the cable debate.) I think you might want to read through the archives A lot of people who really didn't like the HD 600 much said they were amazed by them after hearing them with the BlockHead on the HeadRoom tour. That being said, I agree that if your personal preferences lean towards the "CD 3000 sound" then no amount of tweaking and/or upgrades is going to make the HD 600 right for you. They're too different.

Well about the "consensus" part, it was a way of talking, maybe I could use a more sofisticated wording to make it feel a little more subjective, but is a huge general believe here, at least you agree with me on that, and I feel part of it...

About the second part, and as you wisely stated, sorry sometimes I can't find the right words to express something, I'm writing in a language that is not my native one, and quick most of the times, (my fault), I mean or was trying to say exactly what you explained in the third, that if the HD600 is for you, you will like this sound, but if you like another presentation, not even on the blockhead it will do it....again if you are going to compare the HD600 hooked on the Blockhead, at least get a decent amp for the CD3000 for the comparison....the blockhead is the top of the line on solid state amps, is not fair to hook the HD600 on the blockhead and the CD3000 on the Perreaux I have here....right?

 

[AdamZuf]

MacDef,
i forgot to say: thank you for making me think of it. i try not to be analytical most of times, but this was a good time to interpret my feelings and put them into logic and words. you are challanging.

 

[Sean H]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF Yes, they do roll off a bit in the highs, but so does a room That's personally why I feel the HD 600 (and Etys) are more realistic than the CD 3000. When you listen to music live, from speakers, whatever, you don't hear a "flat" frequency response. The highs are rolled off slightly because of interactions with the environment. If you read the comments by Don Wilson (of Etymotic) he outlines this phenomenon when he explains why Etys roll off in the highs -- because it's what you'd really be hearing in a non-headphone environment.

I have to say I'm with MacDef on this one. He's nailed my point of view in all this. There was a lot of discussion and debate over at Audio Asylum some time back about a "warmth curve" found in some speakers that are heralded as possessing some of the most accurate and natural/realistic sound qualities. I'm a believer that in reality, in a room, the treble does fall off. A warmth curve has a slightly warm bass region, flat midrange region and then a slightly sucked out presence region followed by a return to flat response and then a gradual roll off through the treble. A speaker known to have this type of response is the much regarded classic Spendor 3/5 mini monitor. I once owned the latest version of this speaker, the s3/5, and loved them. The HD600 greatly reminds me of the s3/5's in a big way.

I personally have a hard time listening to speakers or headphones that possess a flat frequency response. I'm definitely hearing this in the CD3000. I'm currently in the process of burning them in and am at about 170 hours and have noticed they have smoothed out considerably over the last 50 hours, astonishingly so in fact. However it's flat response and seemingly "microscope to the recording" type of sound isn't appealing to me at this moment. I do need to spend more time with them and let them break in further however. They indeed impressive cans though.

I personally hear no veil in the HD600, to me they sound pretty accurate. I'm not hearing a blockage or a loss of information due to a veil, it's merely "different" from the way I hear information through the CD3000. Again that is to my ears, that's what I like, that's my taste.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by sacd lover No that the 600's sounded better in that one instance does not mean the cd 3000 is more source sensitive. Because it didnt sound as good on one source hardly proves the cd 3000's are more sensitive. The cd 3000 I have sounds very good out of the headphone jack on my sony 222es. The 580 I owned sounded terrible out of every portabe or cd player jack I ever tried.

Doh... do you realize you're comparing a 300 ohm, 97dB headphone (HD-580) to a 32 ohm, 104dB headphone (CD3000)?

What do you expect will sound better out of general purpose headphone jacks, given the above specs? Of course the HD-580 will sound terrible out of portable/CD player jacks... it seems silly (from here) to belabor the obvious, and it says nothing about "source sensitivity" beyond the fact that the HD-580 is impedance-mismatched and underdriven through many stock headphone jacks (particularly portables). This is no more a flaw of the HD-580 than it would be a flaw in a lightbulb because you can't power it from a 9v battery.

 

[AdamZuf]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sean H seemingly "microscope to the recording" type of sound isn't appealing to me at this moment.

matter of taste. for me, the DT880 and CD3000 redefines the reason for headphone listening. let some psychological burn in with them, maybe it will do the same for you

Quote:

I personally hear no veil in the HD600, to me they sound pretty accurate.

you know, i actually hear more veil with the DT880. for me, it's "coating". it's just certain fuzziness with the HD600. the frequency response peaks and dips, when you "zoom in", results in understanding where they compensate to a level where they are detailed. for me, it comes in expense of naturalness of the instruments and vocals. like females sound a bit synth like and manly. to be honest, female vocals aren't best for now with the CD3000 too, i really need my EMP back, ASAP. i hope this will change, and that is controllable with some tube rolling.
anyway, i don't feel that "veiled" and "inaccurate" are exactly overlapping, each headphones presents new little laws.

 

[sacd lover]

quote:
Yes, they do roll off a bit in the highs, but so does a room

That's personally why I feel the HD 600 (and Etys) are more realistic than the CD 3000. When you listen to music live, from speakers, whatever, you don't hear a "flat" frequency response. The highs are rolled off slightly because of interactions with the environment.

I dont agree with this comment. I dont know what your room is like but mine hardens and elevates the treble. I have damping material on both side walls and part of the back wall to tame the treble. The room surfaces can not only roll off the treble but add to the treble. I also dont find the character of the senn hd580's I owned to sound like any speaker I have heard, with the possible exception of a Paradigm active 20. These speakers despite their supposed linearity had an upper midrange or treble suckout that always gave the speaker an exaggerated sense of depth. No matter how much you turned up the volume the sound would never come closer. I hear the same thing with the senns. This is great for classical but it just doesnt sound right with rock or blues. I can see and believe that these amps (blockhead) people mention can cure this to some degree. What I dont see is why no one mentions that a darker cable or warmer amp cant have the same cure for the cd 3000. The changes I made in interconnects and a power cord have completely removed the issues I initially had with the cd 3000's treble; and these cables cost Less money than the ones they replaced.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hirsch Sorry. Cable was Clou Red. If memory serves, that setup will give the HD-600 a very similar tonal balance to the CD3000 in a more neutral setup. Put the CD3000 into a ZOTL with that setup, and the high end will be hot enough to burn your ears. It's been awhile since I owned the ZOTL, and did a lot of tube experimenting. The headphones I used were the HD-600, HP-1 and CD-3000 (also W-100 at one point). I got to know the sounds of those three headphones (and how to alter them in the ZOTL) very well during that time. There are other variables that might have been in play as well...power cords and conditioners, transport, digital cable, the particular mods in my DI/O.

And the veil??? Disapear?

Hirsch aside of that and sorry for my ignorance, but has the tonal balance something to do with the "upfrontness" or "veilness"? IMO, and maybe I'm wrong, the tonal balance has more to do with the distribution of the freqs along the spectrum, at least this is the idea I have of those concepts, but IIRC to sound upfront you need impact and speed also, and this in inherent to the design of the driver inside can, nothing to do with the tonal balance, please correct me if I'm wrong...maybe I do not understand this concepts very well, or have them misplaced in my mind..... (and I'm serious..).

 

[AdamZuf]

i second that the HD600 are really not speaker like.
if that floats your boat, i would recommend them last, or the ety's.. which are again, very different animal, but unlike the senns, i believe that they redefines the reasons for headphones listening, big time.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch Doh... do you realize you're comparing a 300 ohm, 97dB headphone (HD-580) to a 32 ohm, 104dB headphone (CD3000)? What do you expect will sound better out of general purpose headphone jacks, given the above specs? Of course the HD-580 will sound terrible out of portable/CD player jacks... it seems silly (from here) to belabor the obvious, and it says nothing about "source sensitivity" beyond the fact that the HD-580 is impedance-mismatched and underdriven through many stock headphone jacks (particularly portables). This is no more a flaw of the HD-580 than it would be a flaw in a lightbulb because you can't power it from a 9v battery.

Wait a minute there, man!!!! IIRC the headphones are designed (all of them) to sound out of a jack of a regular amp, nobody design a headphone "for a dedicated headphone amp only", most of the people that buy the headphones on the market, don't even know that a "headphone amp" exists, (unless electrostatic of course), I agree that with a headphone amp, they sound much better though, but this apply to all of them, not only for the hight impedance, or low eficiency ones, but they are not designed, (none of them, and please correct me, if I'm wrong) to sound good only with a dedicated headphone amp, if I'm wrong on that please pointed me to the website that states that the HD600 or any other given can, was designed to be driven by a dedicated headphone amp only please!!!!!

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch Doh... do you realize you're comparing a 300 ohm, 97dB headphone (HD-580) to a 32 ohm, 104dB headphone (CD3000)? What do you expect will sound better out of general purpose headphone jacks, given the above specs? Of course the HD-580 will sound terrible out of portable/CD player jacks... it seems silly (from here) to belabor the obvious, and it says nothing about "source sensitivity" beyond the fact that the HD-580 is impedance-mismatched and underdriven through many stock headphone jacks (particularly portables). This is no more a flaw of the HD-580 than it would be a flaw in a lightbulb because you can't power it from a 9v battery.

Do you realize you stated you need more expensive equipment for the cd 3000 based on the airhead /portable cd comparison. I
pointed out you dont. The cd 3000 works very well out of a regular cd pplayer jack; no amp required. I am well aware the 600's dont sound good unamped that was my point.

You stated in the same post that it takes a lot of cash to make the hd600's shine and imply the cd 3000 will require an even greater expenditure; not true. You can get them to sound good with a decent cd player jack. Furthermore, mine sound fabulous using a gilmore amp, magwire ultra interconnects, a sacdmods 222es and some signalcable power cords and a ps audio ultimate outlet; grand total 1/2 what a blockhead costs alone or an amount similar to a Headroom Max by itself.

Apparently you have heard the cd 3000 in one setup that didnt mesh well and have decided they are not any good. Again, listen to the cd 3000 in a well matched setup and you will likely wonder what you were thinking.

 

[AdamZuf]

i'll quote myself:
Quote:

for me, i find most of the resolution of the CD3000 in the lower frequencies. the frequency separation in the low region and instrument/environment relationships in that frequencies is amazing. of coare they have more resolution in the higher frequencies, that's obvious, because they have more of them. but here's a region that the HD600 are supposed to do quite well and don't have any roll off.

well, lower frequencies from the mids down. now, it might be that some of the details i hear, as up we go in their "better then senns range", comes from trebles, as certain instruments that are "in the mids" actually extend much higher.
the beautiful thing is that the sonys just keep up to that level of details to the lowest bass, along with obvious detailed trebles, building their firm soundstage and neutrality (to my ears!) in a very deep, detailed picture. all of the frequencies ranges perform almost as well as the other.
though i would like to hear a bit more of the highest trebles (starting an accelerating curve from about 17kHz)
this is on my Porta Corda, which has a good treble extension. i'll compare it to the EMP later.

interesting. i'm now listening to "Bustan Abraham", ethnic music. the recording quality of this album is not the best, but it holds a very true nature of the instruments' character, and great balance. the sonys shows this very well - right timbre and essence for the instruments, yet you hear the faults of the recording. they are now upfront, and the soundstage don't tend to show its ends, like the sony tend to sound lots of time. it's now the healthy distance in an ethnic performance - sitting a few meters from the players, on the same height. reproducing the right depth and lower vibe of ethnic instruments, which often tends to be bright sounding, is a key to passing the right emotion. there is a slight hump in the ~550Hz-700Hz that bothers me a bit.. but the benefits are there for sure.
overall, i'm very pleased with the sonys on this one.

another complain i have to the sonys, as a bassist, is that bass guitars should expand a bit more into that big soundstage, in terms of size, but to keep their volume. i think that confirms my suspicion for the hump. tainning it will probably result in a less big soundstage to a certain degree, and better the bass guitar/soundstage proportions. just my assumptions.
the HD600. otoh, to my hearing, don't even able me to recodnize the bass brand that is player is using. lots of basses sounds like Rickenbackers, and Rickenbackers don't sound as they should. the CD3000 are much superior in that area.


P.S. i would compare the beyers now (senns aren't here), but i'm enjoying this too much

i'm out of here!

 

[fewtch]

I'm leaving this thread permanently (I'm sure all you CD3k fanatics are breathing a sigh of relief). Reminds me of a bunch of radical born-again xtians pushing their version of the holy bible... no rational discussion here at all, just a bunch of overemotionalized hype and "love-fest" based on one headphone model -- generally without taking sources and other preferences into account.

Based on all this, I would never get a CD3k (if it turns you into a hype-meister who makes radical, absolutist claims... forget it, I'd rather listen to some stock PCDP earbuds).

Cya... *poof*

 

[MusicLover]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller Wait a minute there, man!!!! IIRC the headphones are designed (all of them) to sound out of a jack of a regular amp, nobody design a headphone "for a dedicated headphone amp only", most of the people that buy the headphones on the market, don't even know that a "headphone amp" exists, (unless electrostatic of course), I agree that with a headphone amp, they sound much better though, but this apply to all of them, not only for the hight impedance, or low eficiency ones, but they are not designed, (none of them, and please correct me, if I'm wrong) to sound good only with a dedicated headphone amp, if I'm wrong on that please pointed me to the website that states that the HD600 or any other given can, was designed to be driven by a dedicated headphone amp only please!!!!!

I doubt they are designed to be heard without a dedicated amp. Both headphones are top of the line, and without an amp, it is pointless to buy such good headphones. The HD600's especially are made to driven with an amp, obviously, because they are 300 ohms.

 

[Sean H]

Quote:

Originally posted by sacd lover quote: I dont agree with this comment. I dont know what your room is like but mine hardens and elevates the treble. I have damping material on both side walls and part of the back wall to tame the treble. The room surfaces can not only roll off the treble but add to the treble. I also dont find the character of the senn hd580's I owned to sound like any speaker I have heard, with the possible exception of a Paradigm active 20. These speakers despite their supposed linearity had an upper midrange or treble suckout that always gave the speaker an exaggerated sense of depth.

Complete misconception. Room reflections affect the upper midrange lower treble regions much more than the upper treble. Frequencies in the treble tend to beam and are very weak off axis. This goes back to what I had said earlier that is a tangent of this discussion is that brightness is caused by pronounced frequencies in the upper midrange/treble region (much wider dispersion). Spendor's, which are speakers that the HD600's can sound like, have a slight upper midrange/low treble suckout desgined to negate room interactions in these frequencies that we are are so sensitive too. The room interactions somewhat help balance this region, if the suckout were not there the room could make this region sound pronounced. But it doesn't completely balance it out because Spendor believes that in a live performance the upper midrange frequenices are somewhat subdued. It's my thinking that Sennheiser adheres to this sort of thinking, to some degree or variation of, and designed the HD600 accordingly.